Rick Froman, dismayed at the distasteful implications of my
argument that there is no universally correct morality,
protested:
> So does that mean there is no true one or just that there is no scientific
> test to ascertain it? What of a morality that sees science as ungodly? Is
> that an equally valid morality even though we know science is good. It seems
> that you have taken morality outside of the area of science.
Exactly my point. Morality can't be established by examination of
evidence or by logic. It's determined by belief. I might ask Rick
to name some of the moral precepts he believes are universal.
I'm pretty sure it would turn out that of all the enormously
varied moral beliefs held by people across this planet, the ones
he names turn out to be those he himself holds. Is this mere
coincidence? Is Rick just lucky that he stands on the right side
of every belief? Or does it indicate the profound enthnocentrism
of the concept?
Rick says, plaintively:
> I am certainly despairing for an atheistic moralist (or even an agnostic
> moralist) to take up the standard here <snip>
>
> In fact, maybe Stephen is arguing well
> for my own belief that, if God did not create the moral law, there is no
> absolute standard favoring a particular morality over any other. Lying is as
> good as honesty, stealing is as good as giving and killing is as good as
> nurturing (maybe better in all cases if it leads to your personal survival).
<snip>
There is a (limited) loophole in this dismal state of affairs.
It's that beliefs that produce behaviour which leads to the
survival of the group will become dominant. Beliefs that lead to
less reproductive success will not. There is no goodness or
badness here; only the working of evolution. So we can only hope
that principles such as truth, honesty, and an abhorence of
killing lead ultimately to that kind of success, rather than
principles of lying, stealing, and killing.
Rick misunderstands the examples of my original speculation:
I said:
>
> "A speculation: cultural beliefs must persist because they promote
> the survival of the group that believes them. Beliefs harmful to
> the group will lead instead to its extinction (e.g. the Shakers'
> belief in celibacy; Heaven's Gate followers' belief in suicide).
> So rather than evil, as the Lucifer Principle apparently claims,
> it may be belief in a particular morality that has survival
> value."
Rick replies:
>
> Simply "believing that it is good to act in a particular way" promotes
> survival didn't do much for Heaven's Gate followers (assuming they are not
> actually on that asteroid right now) or the Quakers as you point out.
That's the point. If a group insists on choosing strikingly
inappropriate moral beliefs such as celibacy or death, they're
sure not going to make more babies to carry their views forward.
Seen any Heaven's's Gaters or Shakers lately? But in most cases,
it's a lot more subtle than that, and we have to take the long
view. In evolution, the long view is a few million years. So
place your bets about which morality has the most staying power,
and let's check 'em out two million years from now. In the
meantime, I'll hold the bets for everyone (they're safe with me,
despite my moral views).
Now the swan song. As the self-declared subscriber with the
longest continuous unbroken active subscription to TIPS, I feel
it's time to pass the torch (or the duckling) to someone else.
I'm going to temporarily go nomail while I join the International
Brigade, find a brave bull, and think about death in the
afternoon. Or, like Ferdinand, just smell the flowers.
When the hapless American President Richard Nixon resigned, he
said something pathetic at his news conference like "You won't
have Nixon to kick around anymore". When our ineffable Prime
Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau resigned, he said something like
"I won't have you guys to kick around anymore".
I like PET's version better.
-Stephen
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Stephen Black, Ph.D. tel: (819) 822-9600 ext 2470
Department of Psychology fax: (819) 822-9661
Bishop's University e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lennoxville, QC
J1M 1Z7
Canada Department web page at http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy
Check out TIPS listserv for teachers of psychology at:
http://www.frostburg.edu/dept/psyc/southerly/tips/
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