Louis writes: >Allen, what rosy picture? Louis: Please quote me accurately. I referred to "your RELATIVELY rosy portrait of religious life in China today" (my emphasis). I leave any TIPSters who read what follows in the latter part of this post to judge whether what you wrote was indeed a "relatively rosy" portrait of the state of religion in China today. But first your words:
>Buddhism is one of the five "permitted" religions --no >1st amendment here—IN WHAT SO MANY AMERICANS >THINK IS ATHEISTIC, COMMUNIST CHINA! HOW ABOUT >THAT! TALK ABOUT ATTACKING STEREOTYPES! [My upper case for emphasis.] The use of the word "stereotypes", especially with the three exclamation marks in successive sentences, clearly implies at least a partial misconception on the part of Americans. How could Americans believe partially misconceived stereotypes about Communist China's treatment of religious people? "…religion in China was severely repressed under Mao Zedong’s Communist rule, especially during the Cultural Revolution (1966–1976), religious traditions remained alive, but often underground." http://www3.ptsem.edu/inSpire/spring2010/index.aspx?id=3926 More on that misleading "stereotype" of the Chinese People's Republic's treatment of religion: 1966-1976 – The Cultural Revolution begins. Red Guards carry out a ruthless campaign to crush religion. All religious activities were banned and church buildings were either closed or destroyed. Hundreds of clergy, including TSPM pastors, were sent to labor camps for re-education through labor. http://www.chinaaid.org/qry/page.taf?id=136 Bringing things more up to date to show what a misleading "stereotypical" view Americans have about Chinese treatment of religious folk outside organisations officially sanctioned by the government: The Guardian 18 July 2009: "Anyone practising religious observance outside officially sanctioned channels, including members of unofficial Catholic churches or Protestant house churches, risk detention. Other groups at risk include Muslims in the Xinjiang Uighur autonomous region, especially those branded as religious extremists by the authorities." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/18/china-falun-gong-crackdown No doubt during the time you have spent in China you heard all about "the detention and torture of Christians… In February, 21, 2008, prominent Christian leaders were sentenced to re-education through labour in what one agency, China Aid Association, described as the largest mass sentencing of house church leaders in 25 years." http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/19/religion.humanrights Somehow you never did get around to telling me how, in a vast country like China, you could declare so confidently: >But, Buddhism is practiced openly and without >any restriction or government interference. Obviously you didn't include Tibet in this statement. Do you disagree with the Chinese government's view that Tibet is an integral part of China? >Now, I have traveled China for the past six years; I have >taught in China for the past six years. I have visited Buddhist >temples and Islamic mosques. I have spoken with Buddhist >priests and Islamic imams. I have talked with Chinese citizens >of all ages and from all walks of life. I have eyes. And, by >the way, I have also seen and spoken with members of the >Falun Gong and Christian evangelicals (allowed to worship >in private homes, but not in the open or in Churches edifices). The area of China is approximately 3.75 million square miles. Even allowing that a vast part of this in virtually uninhabited, it still leaves a huge area of China that you didn't see (not to mention what you were not told by your contacts). The journalist Edgar Snow lived in China for many years. Here is his relatively rosy impression of China during the great famine of 1959-1962: "I saw no starving people in China ... Considerable malnutrition undoubtedly existed. Mass starvation? No." and: "Whatever he was eating, the average Chinese maintained himself in good health, as far as anyone could see." In fact tens of millions died of hunger and malnutrition during the famine: "Most died of hunger, over two million were executed or tortured to death, the birth rate halved in some places …" http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/mirsky_09_10.html During the time you have spent time in China in the last six years no doubt you have learned all about the following, and discussed such events (occurring in 2004) with the Christians you met (who of course felt comfortable about being completely open about discussing the situation of their co-religionists with a foreigner): "They hung me up across an iron gate, then they yanked open the gate and my whole body lifted until my chest nearly split in two. I hung like that for four hours." That is how Peter Xu Yongze, the founder of one of the largest religious movements in China, described his treatment during one of five jail sentences on account of his belief in Christianity. Mr Xu, 61, is not the only Chinese Christian to suffer for his faith. Both Catholics and Protestants have long complained of persecution by the Communist authorities, and human rights groups claim the problem is getting worse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3993857.stm And no doubt you discussed this with those same religious people: Amnesty report, 2001: Torture in China - a growing scourge in China: Torture and ill-treatment are prevalent during high profile political campaigns such as the crackdown on the banned Falun Gong organization. http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/004/2001/en/f3b4ee46-dc53-11dd-bce7-11be3666d687/asa170042001en.html And in your discussions with so many people, you no doubt heard all about this (Amnesty International, 2000): In police stations, detention centres, prisons, "re-education through labour" camps and repatriation centres throughout China, torture is widespread and should be seriously condemned by the UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), Amnesty International said today. http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/022/2000/en/e367633a-df3f-11dd-a3b7-b978e1cb2058/asa170222000en.html And when you have "spoken with members of the Falun Gong" they mentioned this: "Torture and ill-treatment are prevalent during high profile political campaigns such as the crackdown on the banned Falun Gong organization." And this: " Many cases have also been reported in which Falun Gong practitioners, alone or in groups, were taken by police to mental hospitals where they were detained for periods varying from a few days to many months." And this: "By mid January 2001, at least 120 Falun Gong practitioners (62 women) were reported to have died since the beginning of the crackdown on the group in July 1999." I'm sure those Falun Gong people you met told you about the following experiences of their co-religionists (2004 BBC report): The target of merciless persecution in China, Falun Gong (Work of the Law Wheel) - also known as Falun Dafa (Method of the Law Wheel) - evades easy definition. Claiming to be an ancient technique of self-development, Falun Gong is an eclectic mixture of Taoist and Buddhist principles with a sprinkling of extraterrestrials. Despite its emphasis on positive thinking and avowedly non-political stance, its Chinese followers have become the victims of a campaign of systematic and appalling human rights abuses. The death toll in custody almost certainly runs into thousands (Amnesty International gives a fully authenticated figure of 700) but the problem with Chinese statistics is that they vary according to their political importance. Falun Gong itself gives a higher figure for deaths under torture for which they can verify names and locations, but the likelihood is that the figures (as so often in China) may be very much higher - because most of the deaths in labour camps go unreported. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2922644 With all those contacts you must have heard that it's still going on: Ten years after the prohibition on Falun Gong was ordered by China's former leader Jiang Zemin, commencing a brutal crackdown on its adherents, believers such as Qiao's parents are still being pursued, despite international protests. The only change is that the persecution is now more secretive. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/18/china-falun-gong-crackdown I suppose from your point of view, labour/re-education camps don't exist in China any more than severe, and sometimes brutal, repression of religious groups since you didn't see any sign of them, and (presumably) none of your many contacts talked about them. Incidentally, all but the first few sentences of the first paragraph of your latest response is so irrelevant to the points I made that I can only describe that passage as a red herring to evade addressing the subject under discussion, namely, China's policies towards religion post-1949 with particular emphasis on the recent and current situation. >So, if you want to continue this discussion in more detail, >I'd be only to happy to do so off-line. Thanks, but no thanks, Louis. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org ---------------------------- Re: [tips] Random Thought: China Diary, Ourselves Louis E. Schmier Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:29:33 -0700 Allen, what rosy picture? And, whatever defensiveness you see in my reply, is in your eyes. Again, there is no 1st amendment in China. Religious practice is controlled, albeit "permitted" or otherwise. But, you do want to rewrite history, don't you. When you mix religion with politics, it's all about politics--as was the case of the English Reformation begun essentially by that Defender of the Faith (Catholicism), Henry VIII, as is in the case of Tibet, as is the case of the Uighurs, and as was the case with Mao's campaign against religion in China. Remember Mao, in the course of his revolution against western control and influence in China, said that Christianity was western religion introduced to China on a cannonball, that is, it and its contending missionaries, represented the presence of western, imperial, denigrating domination. But, at the same time, this control, repression, suppression, isn't particularly new in Chinese history any more than it is unique in European history. You only have to go back to the late 18th century White Lotus rebellion and the Taiping rebellion of the early 19th century, both of which were seen as challenges to imperial authority. Now, I have traveled China for the past six years; I have taught in China for the past six years. I have visited Buddhist temples and Islamic mosques. I have spoken with Buddhist priests and Islamic imams. I have talked with Chinese citizens of all ages and from all walks of life. I have eyes. And, by the way, I have also seen and spoken with members of the Falun Gong and Christian evangelicals (allowed to worship in private homes, but not in the open or in Churches edifices). But, this has little to do with teaching or psych. So, if you want to continue this discussion in more detail, I'd be only to happy to do so off-line. Make it a good day -Louis- Louis Schmier http://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.org Department of History http://www.therandomthoughts.com Valdosta State University Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. 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