Yes, your "man on the street" perspective is quite in line with Kohlberg's 
testing of an individual judging a person's actions in a hypothetical scenario 
(such as Heinz stealing a drug to save a life). I think the most interesting 
applications of the work, though, are to how we explain our own behavior, not 
the behavior of others.

As others have said, there are many things that would go into making such a 
decision and performing such a behavior. Kohlberg's theory is really about how 
we explain it to ourselves. This rationale or justification may or may not have 
much to do with the actual motivating factors. As a person's cognitive 
capacities develop, they begin to reason differently about their ethical and 
moral choices. Some would see this as a development from a lower to a higher 
morality and maybe even a greater likelihood of performing moral actions. What 
your chart shows is that a person could make either choice at each level. It 
isn't really about the behavior chosen but about the way we explain it. This 
isn't to say that there aren't decisions that are more or less moral or that 
all of these arguments are equally valid, just that a person's cognitive level 
will determine the particular justification they give. By the way, this kind of 
chart is quite common in discussions of Kohlberg's work, including the Heinz 
dilemma. You can argue both ways for Heinz' actions at each level. 

It is a long-standing critique of Kohlberg's model to say that the person at 
the highest level of moral reasoning, who will follow their own conscience 
regardless of the law or any social contract, is hard to distinguish, by 
definition alone, from a sociopath. Kohlberg seems to believe that all 
right-thinking people will eventually arrive at the Universal Ethical Principle 
but there are certainly those who follow their conscience, break the law and 
are not lauded for it.

Rick

Dr. Rick Froman
Professor of Psychology
Box 3519
x7295
[email protected]  
http://bit.ly/DrFroman 



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Britt [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 9:54 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: Re: [tips] CIA Torture and Kohlberg's Stages

Fascinating Rick.  Thanks for taking the time to make these suggestions.  The 
justifications you've written below come from the perspective of someone inside 
the CIA doing the actual torture, which is a different but equally interesting 
angle than I was thinking.  I was thinking of just the "person on the street" 
and what they might think about whether the torture was right or wrong.  How 
would this person justify the CIA's use of torture?

Also, can you clarify what you mean by, "..the choice made to torture or not is 
not determined by Kohlberg's levels. The level describes the justification that 
will be made for the choice of torturing or not."


Michael A. Britt, Ph.D.
[email protected]
http://www.ThePsychFiles.com
Twitter: @mbritt

> On Dec 19, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Rick Froman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> You are definitely on the right track by demonstrating that the choice made 
> to torture or not is not determined by Kohlberg's levels. The level describes 
> the justification that will be made for the choice of torturing or not. I 
> think your emphasis on what other countries think of us will be, at most, a 
> minor consideration in these personal choices. More likely might be what your 
> immediate superior or your colleagues think of you (especially at a 
> pre-conventional level). The following are not perfect and are certainly not 
> the only possible responses at each level but I think they get at what the 
> justification would be like at each level.
> 
> Instead of referencing the constitution on the top right (Level 1-1 Yes), I 
> would say "I will be punished by my superiors if we don't get results". 
> 
> Level 1-1 No would say, "If anyone finds out that I did this, I will get it 
> trouble, so I will not torture this person." 
> 
> 
> Level 1-2 Yes would be "if I can torture this person to receive actionable 
> intelligence, I will be a hero and be rewarded by my superiors." 
> 
> Level 1-2 No would be "if I don't torture this person, I will be rewarded for 
> it".
> 
> 
> Level 2-1 Yes would be justified in the context of interpersonal 
> relationships such as "my colleagues and superiors will think well of me if I 
> go along with this" and "this will keep more of my fellow citizens and 
> soldiers from dying"
> 
> Level 2-1 No would have to be in the context of interpersonal relationships 
> such as "what might my friends and family think of me if they knew I was 
> doing this?"
> 
> 
> Level 2-2 Yes "We are using these techniques to maintain the social order and 
> bring justice to the victims of terrorism and these techniques have been 
> approved by legal authorities."
> 
> Level 2-2 No (I think the current example given here goes down in the next 
> level) "We shouldn't torture because it is unlawful (hasn't been fully 
> adjudicated in the US and may violate international law) and will lead to a 
> breakdown of law and order where we will sink to the level of the terrorists."
> 
> 
> Level 3-1 Yes "the relevant social contract is with my fellow citizens who 
> have been attacked by terrorists and we are doing this to bring the 
> terrorists to justice (not necessarily in the justice system)."
> 
> Level 3-1 "No the social contract across cultures and national boundaries is 
> that torture is forbidden."
> 
> 
> Level 3-2 "Yes I am at peace with the fact that torture is a necessary evil 
> to prevent greater evils from occurring and I would do this whether it was 
> against the law or not."
> 
> Level 3-2 No "Torture is wrong and I would not torture whether it is against 
> the law or not."
> 
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> Dr. Rick Froman
> Professor of Psychology
> Box 3519
> x7295
> [email protected]
> http://bit.ly/DrFroman
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Britt [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 8:55 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: [tips] CIA Torture and Kohlberg's Stages
> 
> I've been thinking about how people's various reactions to the CIA torture - 
> both pro and con - might be applied to Kohlberg's levels of moral 
> development.  It might make for a good class discussion next semester if 
> there's a way to make this work.  I put together a map of the stages and some 
> rationales that I've heard for the CIA torture, but the map is incomplete (a 
> few of the nodes don't have opinions/rationalizations because I couldn't 
> think of one). Also, I'm wondering whether trying to fit these two things 
> together really works, but I thought it was worth a try.  
> 
> Happy to get input on this map:
> 
> http://bitly.com/TortureAndKohlberg
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D.
> [email protected]
> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com
> Twitter: @mbritt
> 
> 
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