> NIST PQC API is Key Encapsulation – conceptually similar to RSA key exchange.
> 
> 
> Yes, but this has no bearing on why it's deprecated.


+1. The PQ KEMs aren't relevant here.


> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:31 AM, David Benjamin <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 12:19 PM Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Following the discussions around draft-bartle-tls-deprecate-ffdh and 
> draft-aviram-tls-deprecate-obsolete-kex, and after consulting the chairs, we 
> have merged the two drafts into draft-aviram-tls-deprecate-obsolete-kex 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-aviram-tls-deprecate-obsolete-kex/>.
> 
>  
> 
> The merged draft prescribes the following:
> 
> RSA key exchange is a MUST NOT. 
> NIST PQC API is Key Encapsulation – conceptually similar to RSA key exchange.
> 
> 
> Yes, but this has no bearing on why it's deprecated.
> 
> The question is how you use the KEM, and as well as the properties of the KEM 
> in question. In TLS 1.3, and in TLS 1.2 (EC)DHE key exchanges, the KEM 
> recipient generates an ephemeral, per-connection key. This gives us forward 
> secrecy properties, which this WG has treated as important. In TLS 1.2 RSA 
> key exchange, the recipient uses a static RSA key. In principle, one could 
> also use an RSA-based KEM with ephemeral keys, but RSA key generation is so 
> expensive that this is implausible. Regardless, "RSA key exchange" in the 
> context of TLS is specifically the TLS 1.2 RSA construction, which doesn't do 
> this.
> 
> Additionally, the particular KEM-like construction used in TLS RSA key 
> exchange is flawed, per the Bleichenbacher attack. While we have a 
> mitigation, it is just a workaround for what is ultimately a flawed 
> construction. That mitigation has also had a series of implementation issues, 
> per the documents cited by the draft.
>  
> 
> Non-ephemeral finite-field DH is a MUST NOT.
>  
> 
> Overkill, and unnecessary. Should be SHOULD NOT.
> 
>  
> 
> Non-ephemeral ECDH is a SHOULD NOT.
>  
> 
> OK.
> 
>  
> 
> Ephemeral finite-field DH (DHE) is a MAY, only when fully ephemeral, and only 
> using a well-known group of size at least 2048 bits.
>  
> 
> Overkill, though requiring sufficiently large group size is fine.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> We added greater justification for point 3 
> <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-aviram-tls-deprecate-obsolete-kex-01.html#name-security-considerations-2>
>  above to address concerns previously raised on the list.
> 
>  
> 
> We'd love to hear your thoughts.
> 
>  
> 
> best wishes,
> 
> Carrick and Nimrod
> 
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