Hi August,
Your examples are very specific and are aimed where the traditional mvc
pattern would serve well. But there also many situations where having to
write a jsp, a bean and a controller just proves to be a very tedious and
cumbersome process. I know it, I've done it!
This toolkit is just an alternative approach, if you look closely its
really a skewed mvc implementation.
Keith
August Detlefsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 04/12/2001 13:49:48
Please respond to "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Tomcat Users List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:
Subject: Re: an alternative approach to the standard mvc
Adding to what Vlad said, consider a web application that will be
deployed in the ASP model: multiple companies will use the same service
(for example email, contact list, calendar), but they each want their
own look & feel. In this case, the view must absolutely be separate
from the controller and the model. You are better off putting the extra
work into the control and keeping your model and view as simple as
possible.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> Well yes like any solution there are strengths and weaknesses. You're
> absolutely correct here, if you do need to change your html then you
> will
> need to change your java code and recompile. But mind you the Jsp is
> only
> one part of the overall solution (I'm talking in the traditional mvc
> sense), you still have your JavaBean and Controller classes. So even
> if you
> save time not having to recompile your Jsps, for the most of your
> development time you're writing the code for the JavaBean and
> Controller,
> so you have to recompile anyway.
>
> The toolkit is designed purely for the html form only, from my own
> experiences there's not all that much fancy html stuff you can do in
> the
> form itelf, around the form yes! and the html developer is still free
> to do
> that in this toolkit. If you use style-sheets extensively it wouldn't
> be
> that hard to get around the issues you have raised.
>
> I'm not suggesting for a second that this toolkit was meant to solve
> everyone's problems, but it may help some developers who develop the
> Html
> and the Business Code themselves. If you have a person developing all
> the
> Html code, and another writing the Java code then its probably not
> appropriate.
>
> Thanks for your input Vlad, its much appreciated.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> "Vladimir Grishchenko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 04/12/2001 12:38:29
>
> Please respond to "Tomcat Users List"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> cc:
> Subject: Re: an alternative approach to the standard mvc
>
>
> Well, after taking second look I agree that ECS is more primitive.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to say that making HTML
> construction
> done via Java objects and providing convenience methods for
> extracting
> request parameters is no replacement for MVC in a general case. Say,
> I
> want
> to change the look and feel of my web site (an old example...), do I
> need
> to
> rewrite all my classes that inherit from OHTML and have them
> recompiled? If
> it's a simple project it's probably OK, but as a Java software
> developer I
> don't want to create html designs (whether or not via html directly
> or
> using
> OHTML classes) if there are people on the project who are good at it,
> and
> in
> their turn those people won't feel comfortable dealing with Java
> code.
>
> Again, don't get me wrong, the stuff you've created is great, but
> unfortunately it's not a universal MVC replacement.
> Just my 2 c.
>
> Vlad.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: an alternative approach to the standard mvc
>
>
> >
> >
> > Well that particular project you referred its just a generic
> construction
> > set for Html or Xml. The toolkit I've proposed goes beyond that, my
> objects
> > actually have state and are true objects in the OO sense.
> > The toolkit does more than just abstract html construction via java
> > manipulation, if thats what you think it does then you've missed
> the
> whole
> > point. I welcome your comment though, cause it means I haven't
> explained
> > the purposes toolkit well enough.
> >
> > I know what MVC is meant to do, in theory it sounds very good but
> one of
> > the problems is that a lot of the times business logic drives the
> > presentation. What I'm trying to do is make the
> view/model/controller a
> lot
> > closer to each other, i.e. I'm trying to couple the parts that they
> have
> in
> > common and trying to decouple the parts that should be seperated.
> In the
> > normal MVC pattern you got the model, view and controller all
> seperated,
> > but the reality is that there is strong relationship between all of
> them.
> >
> > Before you make another comment, please have a look at what the
> method
> > updateData() tries to do and look at how you much easier you access
> the
> > data from the form and how you can manipulate the presentation of
> the
> form.
> >
> > btw.. my solution does seperate presentation from the logic. All
> the
> > presentation is held in the objects themselves. Though I haven't
> planned
> > it, its possible that these objects at a latter stage will render
> something
> > else instead of Html.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Vladimir Grishchenko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 04/12/2001 11:29:39
> >
> > Please respond to "Tomcat Users List"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > cc:
> > Subject: Re: an alternative approach to the standard mvc
> >
> >
> > What's wrong with Element Construction Set
> > (http://jakarta.apache.org/ecs/index.html) ?
> >
> > IMHO the whole point of MVC is to separate presentation logic from
> business
> > logic. Your solution seems to only abstract html construction via
> java
> > object manipulation. There's much more to MVC than just that. It's
> no
> > replacement for MVC. Overall the idea is nice but not new. Sorry
> for not
> > being supportive, just my opinion.
> >
> > --V.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:48 PM
> > Subject: an alternative approach to the standard mvc
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > For those who have built a web application using the standard MVC
> pattern
> > > I'm sure you have found it can be quite a tedious and cumbersome
> > solution.
> > > The constant need to jump in and out of html/java and the messy
> process
> > of
> > > moving data between the model, the controller and the view is not
> a
> > pretty
> > > one. I've tried to come up with a better solution for
> implementing MVC.
> > > Objective html is a toolkit that aims at making html form
> development
> > > similar to the code you write for something like Java-Swing.
> Instead of
> > > having 3 components for each form, i.e. the jsp page, the
> javabean and
> > the
> > > controller, I've pull all these components back together so you
> have
> the
> > > model, controller and view in the one class file. If you check
> out my
>
=== message truncated ===
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