My problem is SR did not sell anything,the vedorers did the selling?
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 2:37 AM, <[email protected]>wrote: > Send tor-talk mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tor-talk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Silk Road taken down by FBI (mirimir) > 2. Re: Silk Road taken down by FBI (Juan Garofalo) > 3. Re: Silk Road taken down by FBI (Phil Mocek) > 4. Re: Silk Road taken down by FBI (mirimir) > 5. Re: Silk Road taken down by FBI (Juan Garofalo) > 6. Re: problems with TOR and Silk Road (Vladimir Teplouhov) > 7. Re: problems with TOR and Silk Road (mirimir) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 03:22:24 +0000 > From: mirimir <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Silk Road taken down by FBI > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 10/04/2013 02:21 AM, Roger Dingledine wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 02:11:26AM +0000, mirimir wrote: > >> On 10/04/2013 01:54 AM, Juan Garofalo wrote: > >>> I'm wondering if I got this right: > >>> > >>> The NSA is supposed to be concerned only with 'national security' > >>> issues and can't spy on 'ordinary Americans'. In practice the NSA spies > >>> on everyone paying no attention to 'legal' restraints. > >>> > >>> If the NSA happens to find the location of, say, a 'criminal' tor > >>> hidden service, the NSA will forward the information to the pertinent > >>> 'agency', say, the DEA, and the DEA will lie about how they got the > >>> information, presenting a 'plausible' alternate explanation. Is that > how > >>> they basically operate? > > [snip] > > > >> Of course, the FBI could be totally lying in the complaint. > > > > Can you point to a specific statement in the affidavit that would be a > > lie if the "NSA conspires to tip off FBI" theory were true? > > OK, I just read the Maryland complaint. It's obvious what happened. > > An FBI undercover agent contacted him, wanting to sell large quantities > of cocaine. He found a buyer, and delegated the details to his employee. > Said employee had full admin access to his servers. > > His employee then provided his ACTUAL PHYSICAL ADDRESS to the undercover > FBI agent. The FBI mailed 1 Kg (very highly cut) cocaine to said > employee, and arrested him on receipt. Said employee soon told the FBI > all that he knew. > > So now the FBI had access to the servers. There's no reason to suspect > that they needed to compromise Tor to gain access, or for anything else. > > There's more drama about the murder for hire stuff, but it's irrelevant. > > > Remember, the job of the guy writing the document is to lay out a set > > of correct facts which together show clear evidence that he's a criminal. > > > > Or to say it differently, it's his job to figure out the right way > > (including the right order, and the right subset) of presenting his > > facts so they make his case the best way he can. > > > > And he's under no obligation to include all of the facts -- just the > > ones that make his case most likely to win. > > > > I'm not saying that this version of the conspiracy did or didn't happen > > this way. You're right that "look, he screwed up enough different ways, > > why do you need a more complicated theory?" is a convincing argument. > > But if it *did* happen, there's no reason for them to have to lie -- > > they could have (should have) just gone and done all the things they > > say they did, to be able to write a winning case. > > > > --Roger > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 00:50:45 -0300 > From: Juan Garofalo <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Silk Road taken down by FBI > Message-ID: <860ACA42A227315F5D668D6B@F74D39FA044AA309EAEA14B9> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > > > --On Friday, October 04, 2013 2:11 AM +0000 mirimir <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On 10/04/2013 01:54 AM, Juan Garofalo wrote: > >> > >> > >> I'm wondering if I got this right: > >> > >> The NSA is supposed to be concerned only with 'national security' > >> issues and can't spy on 'ordinary Americans'. In practice the NSA spies > >> on everyone paying no attention to 'legal' restraints. > >> > >> If the NSA happens to find the location of, say, a 'criminal' tor > >> hidden service, the NSA will forward the information to the pertinent > >> 'agency', say, the DEA, and the DEA will lie about how they got the > >> information, presenting a 'plausible' alternate explanation. Is that how > >> they basically operate? > > > > Yes, that sounds about right. > > > > But, how would we know that? > > It's 'public knowledge'? > > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennifergranick/2013/08/14/nsa-dea-irs-lie-about-fact-that-americans-are-routinely-spied-on-by-our-government-time-for-a-special-prosecutor-2/ > > > > > > > Here, it's more plausible that the found his hosting provider through > > his bank or credit card account, or through his gmail address. No? > > > That's another possibility. More plausible? Perhaps, but who knows. > > However, I wasn't specifically commenting on the silk road case. > Apologies, the subject says "silk road", but my message was worded in > general terms. > > > > > > Why assume conspiracy, when there's so much obvious stupidity? > > > > Of course, the FBI could be totally lying in the complaint. > > > My point exactly. Although we can't know if that's the case, the > possibility that they are at least partially lying is very real. > > > > -- > > tor-talk mailing list - [email protected] > > To unsusbscribe or change other settings go to > > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 21:15:00 -0700 > From: Phil Mocek <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Silk Road taken down by FBI > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > krishna e bera: > > If the FBI had to use a subpoena it means the VPN provider wasnt > > cooperating, but was forced by legal means to hand over the info. > > > > It would be unrealistic to expect any provider in any country to destroy > > subscriber info after they had received a notice from a judge ordering > > it to be turned over to police. > > I don't know which is relevant in this case, but please note that unlike > judicial subpoenas, [administrative subpoenas][1] in the United States > are not issued by judges. > > [1]: > <http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/administrative-subpoenas/all/> > ("We Don?t Need No Stinking Warrant: The Disturbing, Unchecked > Rise of the Administrative Subpoena," by David Kravets, 2012-08-28) > > -- > Phil Mocek > http://mocek.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 04:31:46 +0000 > From: mirimir <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Silk Road taken down by FBI > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 10/04/2013 03:50 AM, Juan Garofalo wrote: > > > > > > --On Friday, October 04, 2013 2:11 AM +0000 mirimir <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> On 10/04/2013 01:54 AM, Juan Garofalo wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm wondering if I got this right: > >>> > >>> The NSA is supposed to be concerned only with 'national security' > >>> issues and can't spy on 'ordinary Americans'. In practice the NSA spies > >>> on everyone paying no attention to 'legal' restraints. > >>> > >>> If the NSA happens to find the location of, say, a 'criminal' tor > >>> hidden service, the NSA will forward the information to the pertinent > >>> 'agency', say, the DEA, and the DEA will lie about how they got the > >>> information, presenting a 'plausible' alternate explanation. Is that > how > >>> they basically operate? > >> > >> Yes, that sounds about right. > >> > >> But, how would we know that? > > > > It's 'public knowledge'? > > > > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennifergranick/2013/08/14/nsa-dea-irs-lie-about-fact-that-americans-are-routinely-spied-on-by-our-government-time-for-a-special-prosecutor-2/ > > I agree that the practice is now common knowledge. What I meant was how > would we know, in a particular case, that they were hiding illegal > evidence (like NSA leaking to FBI regarding crimes by US citizens that > don't involve national security) that enabled the investigation. > > Criminal defense attorneys are already working this, from what I've > read. But I'm not optimistic that this will lead to public disclosures. > It's just that a few cases will get dropped. > > >> Here, it's more plausible that the found his hosting provider through > >> his bank or credit card account, or through his gmail address. No? > > > > > > That's another possibility. More plausible? Perhaps, but who knows. > > Actually, as I've posted, it was much simpler. One of his employees made > a really stupid mistake, got busted, and then sold him out. > > > However, I wasn't specifically commenting on the silk road case. > > Apologies, the subject says "silk road", but my message was worded in > > general terms. > > > > > >> > >> Why assume conspiracy, when there's so much obvious stupidity? > >> > >> Of course, the FBI could be totally lying in the complaint. > > > > > > My point exactly. Although we can't know if that's the case, the > > possibility that they are at least partially lying is very real. > > I can't deny that. Look at what went down in Boston with Bulger and crew > during the 1970s-1980s. And now the Snowden leaks have revealed that the > whole system is just as corrupt as we cynics suspected. It's disgusting. > But hey, I might as well be amused by it ;) > > Full disclosure: I've been rereading Toto's ravings ;) It's fitting, > somehow. > > >> tor-talk mailing list - [email protected] > >> To unsusbscribe or change other settings go to > >> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 01:37:31 -0300 > From: Juan Garofalo <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Silk Road taken down by FBI > Message-ID: <19D3CF71F2A714865260A91A@F74D39FA044AA309EAEA14B9> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > > > --On Friday, October 04, 2013 3:22 AM +0000 mirimir <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On 10/04/2013 02:21 AM, Roger Dingledine wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 02:11:26AM +0000, mirimir wrote: > >>> On 10/04/2013 01:54 AM, Juan Garofalo wrote: > >>>> I'm wondering if I got this right: > >>>> > >>>> The NSA is supposed to be concerned only with 'national security' > >>>> issues and can't spy on 'ordinary Americans'. In practice the NSA > spies > >>>> on everyone paying no attention to 'legal' restraints. > >>>> > >>>> If the NSA happens to find the location of, say, a 'criminal' tor > >>>> hidden service, the NSA will forward the information to the pertinent > >>>> 'agency', say, the DEA, and the DEA will lie about how they got the > >>>> information, presenting a 'plausible' alternate explanation. Is that > >>>> how they basically operate? > >> [snip] > >> > >>> Of course, the FBI could be totally lying in the complaint. > >> > >> Can you point to a specific statement in the affidavit that would be a > >> lie if the "NSA conspires to tip off FBI" theory were true? > > > > OK, I just read the Maryland complaint. It's obvious what happened. > > > > An FBI undercover agent contacted him, wanting to sell large quantities > > of cocaine. He found a buyer, and delegated the details to his employee. > > Said employee had full admin access to his servers. > > > > His employee then provided his ACTUAL PHYSICAL ADDRESS to the undercover > > FBI agent. The FBI mailed 1 Kg (very highly cut) cocaine to said > > employee, and arrested him on receipt. Said employee soon told the FBI > > all that he knew. > > > > So now the FBI had access to the servers. There's no reason to suspect > > that they needed to compromise Tor to gain access, or for anything else. > > > > > Of course, that makes sense - if you believe them. > > Well, I can prove that pigs fly. I start with the premise that > pigs fly > and then... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:53:28 +0700 > From: Vladimir Teplouhov <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] problems with TOR and Silk Road > Message-ID: > <CAE-sae89py3DXEmszwV_NP5w0vLQHMWT3byLC2S+801LQ= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R > > 04.10.13, mirimir<[email protected]> ???????(?): > > On 10/03/2013 09:59 PM, Vladimir Teplouhov wrote: > > > >> Hello. > > > > Hey, ?? ?????????e, ?????????? ;) > > Sorry, but it would be clearer if I write in Russian - you can > translate http://translate.google.com/ or http://translate.yandex.ru/ > > I understand the engineering and scientific terms, but it is difficult > to properly construct sentences in English ... > > Vladimir > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 06:37:27 +0000 > From: mirimir <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] problems with TOR and Silk Road > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R > > On 10/03/2013 09:59 PM, Vladimir Teplouhov wrote: > > > Hello. > > > > 1. > > ????????? ????? ?????, ? ???????, ??? TOR ??????? ????? ?????????? - > > ?? 10-15 ?????. > > > > ??? ??????? ???? ?????-?? ?????? ???????????(????????????? ?? > > ???????????????????? ???? ????? ????????????), TOR ????????? ?????? > > ????????? ????? ??????(?? ??? ?? ????????) ? ?.?. > > (???-?? ?? ??????? ? ????? ??? ? ????? ?????? TOR ? ???????? ?? > > ????????? ???? ???????? ??? cookies ? ?.?. ?????????) > > > > ??????? ? ?????????? ???????? ??? ??? - TOR ?????????? ???????? ?? 1 > > ?????? ???? ?? ????????? 64k ????????-??????, ??????? ??????... > > When was it that Tor took so long to start? If it was in early > September, you were probably seeing the impact of Mevade bots joining > the Tor network. See <https://metrics.torproject.org/users.html> and > <https://metrics.torproject.org/performance.html>. There are about five > million of them now, but they and Tor have accommodated somewhat. > > > ????? ? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ???????? ???????? ?.?. ??????? ??? ??? > > ??????? ? ?????? ?????????? ??????????????????? ??????? ( > > http://eais.rkn.gov.ru/ -- ??? ????? ????? ????????? ??????? ??????? > > ?? IP, ??-?? ???? ??????????? ????????? ??? ????????????? ?????? ????? > > TOR ?.?. ?? ???-?? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ?????? > > ??????) ? ????????? ????????????? ?????? ? ????? TOR (??? ??????? > > ?????? ?.?. ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????????? ??????????? TOR), > > ?? ?????? ? ????? ??? ?????? ????? Silk Road ??? ??????? ?????? ????? > > TOR, ? ?? ???????????? ????????, ??? ??? ?????... > > The story in the Maryland complaint > < > https://ia601904.us.archive.org/1/items/gov.uscourts.mdd.238311/gov.uscourts.mdd.238311.4.0.pdf > > > makes sense, as I've said in another post. > > It could be all lies, of course. Maybe it's an FBI/NSA scheme to hide > the evidence that they got by compromising Tor. But I'd want some > evidence for that hypothesis, not just the claim that it's possible. > > > 2. > > ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????????? - ??????? ????? ? ??? > > ??????????... > > ? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????????? ????? ?? ????????? ???????? > > ? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? bitcoin-??????????. > > > > ?????? ????: > > 1) ????? ???????? ? ?????????? $ ??????????? ? ???????????.. > > 2) ??? ??? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ?? ??????????????, ???? ??????? ?? > ?????.. > > (? ??? ????????? ???, ???? ??????? ?????????? ???????? ?? > > ????????? ????? ????? ?? ????????????? ???? ???????) > > 3) ?????????? ??????????? ??? ??????? - ???????????? ??????????????? > > "???????" - ??????? ?????? R&D ?? ??????????????? ? ?.?. > > Indeed, he was totally unprepared for any of that. According to the > Maryland complaint, he delegated the transfer of 1 Kg "cocaine" to the > guy who was administering his servers! And then that guy got busted, and > made a deal with the FBI. The rest of it was all manipulated by the FBI, > total entrapment, in my opinion. > > > 3. > > ???? ?? ????? ???????????? ?????????? ??? ?????, ?? ?????? ??????? > > ???????? ?????? ? ???????, ?????? ?? ???????? ?? ??????????????, ??? > > ????? ??????? ???? ????????? TOR ??? ???????? ????????.. > > He's not a criminal! He was just playing at being one ;) He was > apparently a fool to give someone he didn't have any reason to trust > full access to his servers. He should have hired a professional > anonymous administration team, with distributed trust. > > Tor is, in some sense, a military project. But that's a good thing, in > the sense that it's well designed. But no tool, no matter how well > designed, is idiot-proof ;) > > > Vladimir > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > tor-talk mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of tor-talk Digest, Vol 33, Issue 17 > **************************************** > -- tor-talk mailing list - [email protected] To unsusbscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
