Comment mashup... > I think Yelp blocks Tor for a similar reason to why Craigslist blocks > Tor -- their value-add is their web pages, and if their competitors > "steal" their web pages, they've got nothing else. > That kind of business model leads to jealously guarding all of their > pages from being crawled or otherwise viewed en masse -- which in turn > leads to being angry and bitter at every new Internet technology.
Craigslist is relatively unusual in that they do not require an account to view and reply, or even to post (that is, if users can figure out what they mean by not needing an account). There is merit in that usage model. I'd be curious to know if they're using any antispam discriminator engines, markov windows, adaptive statistical, bayes, etc. Those combined with user ham/spam/moderation and captcha seem pretty efective in email. No reason they can't be applied by typical site operators whining about "comment spam". Blocking IP's and phones and emails seems the cheap way out, as opposed to integrating real protections in depth. To be expected with todays silly startup business models where everything is an afterthought. > If someone logs into Yelp as the business owner and as a reviewer > from the same IP, they would make such review "not recommended" > (previously they made it "hidden" and protected with captcha). And > possibly flag the whole business as suspect for writing false > reviews. Yelp also sends businesses monthly reports So when a restaurant has a single external IP rigged into its back office, floor systems, and free wifi for patrons (a very common architecture)... yeah, that makes a lot of sense... not. > with new IP address in numerous cities all over the globe in a > matter of minutes > tough to make cloud IPs look and act the same as residential IPs Tor enables global access for research, that's a good thing. Another thing Tor users are doing is bravely pushing legal boundaries with residential exits. Hopefully someday this will result in no more raids based on silly internet packets. > Tor exit nodes, on the other hand, have a lot of human shields > using them too, so it makes it a lot harder to narrow down a > specific "bad actor" without also hitting actual users. Good, maybe then we can get the world off the "IP = user" mentality, while gaining all this human legitimacy to Tor network thus making people think twice before blocking it. > It used to be that craigslist page loads via Tor were just painfully > slow, which could have been a rate limiting strategy to combat > scrapers, now they just ban it all together. At the moment, no, not entirely. The thing with the various unpublished blocking methods of various websites is that legitimate users don't know how to fit in as good and privacy conscious participants. Are they supposed to buy a new phone every month? Stay in a certain city? Etc. Illegit users will figure all this out. But it's harmful and expensive for the legit ones who login the next day to only to find some unwritten automaton rule wiped them out. And with CL, they completely ignore your inquiries. > I'm curious why Craigslist doesn't just sell their listing data via > API access to companies like Padmapper, that would be a win-win. They're probably worried about dilution. Has Craigslit ever sued any other sites that have a similar listing model? > Because they're actively hostile to creating a better user > experience. Craigslist seems a bit weird with their users, philosophy, and tech. > I am a bit mixed about whether reducing anonymity is a good thing > or not for a site that is ultimately centered around people > interacting in real-life. Reducing anonymity is definitely not good. The only one who can truly look out for you is you. The phrase "911 is a joke" exists for a reason. When you realize this, and begin to develop your own strength, all of a sudden your own anonymity becomes paramount and integral to that such that you are willing to accept the other side having it too. It is one of the great equalizers, with it no one can rule over you. And "data" wise, certainly not unjustly behind your back without your consent. Phrase "buddy system" also exists for reason. > [blocking yields] massive collateral damage to privacy seekers though. You want damage? How about another form of human rights abuse? One thing their users do not know is that Craigslist keeps every single post that has ever been posted on their site forever. Knowing them, you could assume that means not just the text of post content, but all the post pictures, related email addresses and phone numbers... and all the relayed email content as well. Given all the categories of posts and replies their users make, this is a thoroughly dispicable invasion of personal privacy... there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it whatsoever... and their users are completely unaware that it is going on. That's bad. Anyway, as far as blocking legitimate Tor users goes, regardless of who is doing, there's a project here where Tor users are developing rising up and taking action to make themselves and their wishes known... but it doesn't appear a lead has been taken on that yet: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/call-arms-helping-internet-services-accept-anonymous-users https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/projects/DontBlockMe > It would be interesting to know if sites like Yelp/Craiglists are > more afraid of anonymity and possible spam/trolls than crawlers. Most internet companies are headquartered in big cities where there are also a lot of Tor users. I'd suggest some of those users get together to develop a list of interview questions, viewpoints and examples... and then take an afternoon to go visit the companies in person to exchange ideas. -- tor-talk mailing list - [email protected] To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
