On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 9:03 AM Rob Landley <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 8/26/19 2:09 PM, enh wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:54 AM Rob Landley <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> On 8/26/19 11:09 AM, enh wrote: > >>> i did wonder what a rob landley pdf would look like :-) > >> > >> Hey, http://landley.net/aboriginal/downloads/presentation.pdf was created > >> with > >> apple keynote and everything. :P > >> > >> I've _done_ fancy slides, there's just never seemed to be much point? The > >> talks > >> with slides got _less_ engagement. > >> > >> I usually do an outline ala https://landley.net/talks/ohio-2013.txt and > >> this > >> time it was halfway between "slide blocks" and outline blocks, didn't > >> decide > >> which way to go until too late. :P > >> > >>> one entry missing from the timeline is whoever came up to me in the > >>> corridor at the Plumbers conference in Duesseldorf and said "the work > >>> you're doing to switch to some of the BSD tools for /system/bin is all > >>> very nice, but why don't you just use toybox?" to which my response > >>> was "what's toybox?". (being in the right time at the right place is > >>> usually 90% of the battle, and most histories of most things pretend > >>> that they were bound to happen anyway.) > >> > >> I know, I ran out of time putting it together. > >> > >> I remember you mentioning it in the ADB thing. Alas I dunno how to link to > >> a > >> specific _time_ in an MP3 from a URL. (I also wanted to dig up the android > >> bug > >> thread about adding toybox that we first communicated through, but ran out > >> of time.) > >> > >>> the most important factor after chance from my side was that -- unlike > >>> most OSS at the time, especially GPL stuff because of the kind of > >>> person that tends to attract -- was that when i sounded you out you > >>> didn't say "fuck Android, why don't they switch to the GPL and use > >>> glibc?", you said (and i paraphrase and maybe project at the same > >>> time) "i might not agree with all the choices, but you can't change > >>> the past, and you can't argue with 2 billion installs". which might > >>> seem obvious, but you would not believe the trouble we've had with > >>> upstreaming patches. > >> > >> Indeed. > >> > >>> -*- > >>> > >>> unrelated, fwiw since you mention the busybox subdirectory mess, i > >>> find toybox's posix vs other vs lsb etc to just be a smaller version > >>> of the same "where did you hide it, and why should i care?" busybox > >>> problem. (and the cause of my xargs -o patch, which i'll now go and > >>> ping you on...) > >> > >> If you want to throw 'em all into a single directory, I don't particularly > >> mind. > >> I just thought it would be overwhelming. > > > > to whom? > > Good point. > > >> The infrastructure doesn't care, it's a flat command namespace anyway. > >> > >>> personally i could see a stronger argument for a split along the lines > >>> of posix vs linux vs android vs (theoretically at least) bsd (and/or > >>> darwin)... "where is this likely to work?" seems to have _some_ value. > >>> certainly more than "where did this come from?". > >> > >> Except then the same commands show up in multiple categories, and > >> menuconfig > >> isn't really set up to do that. (Plus it's hard to know when you're done. > >> Start > >> at the beginning, each thing occurs once, stop at the end.) > > > > well, i meant _exclusively_. but, yeah, you're right that we'd need at > > least one more directory for "not posix, but also portable". > > I miss when posix was actually sorta functional. Before they yanked tar > because > Jorg Schilling told them Solaris's Pax was so clearly the future and what the > Linux people were doing was obviously _wrong_ and they'd come around if posix > said so. > > Spoiler: nope. And Oracle's a Linux distro vendor now. I just typed "solaris" > into google and the first five hits were about three films made in 1972, 1976, > and 2002. The oracle product is the sixth hit. > > >>> ("lsb" vs "other" > >>> being the most annoying, because who knows and who cares?) > >> > >> It mattered a lot more in 2006. The FSG didn't merge with OSDL to form the > >> Linux > >> Foundation until 2007, and they didn't really start to destroy the LSB > >> until 5 > >> years or so after that. > >> > >> But yeah, that division is no longer relevant. I can remove it if you like. > > > > sgtm. > > > >>> but i still > >>> think putting that in the "Config.in" stuff at the start of the file > >>> makes more sense: "depends on <some linux feature/syscall>". (and this > >>> is only for the "inherent" stuff like dmesg. not the "accidental" > >>> stuff like "the way we happen to have implemented something, which we > >>> can hide in portability.[ch]".) > >> > >> Except almost all that stuff is one command at a time. Is "eject" still > >> relevant? What permissions does "lsusb" need to run? > >> > >> Hmmm... Which _might_ be relevant is: > >> > >> $ grep TOYFLAG_NEEDROOT toys/*/*.c | sed 's/.*TOY(\([^,]*\),.*/\1/' | xargs > >> freeramdisk insmod login reboot halt poweroff rmmod swapoff swapon vconfig > >> crond > >> groupadd addgroup groupdel delgroup openvt deallocvt sulogin useradd > >> adduser > >> userdel deluser > >> $ grep TOYFLAG_STAYROOT toys/*/*.c | sed 's/.*TOY(\([^,]*\),.*/\1/' | xargs > >> mount nfsmount passwd umount taskset bootchartd crontab syslogd traceroute > >> traceroute6 iotop > >> > >> Which is more or less the historical /bin vs /sbin split I believe? > >> (Haven't > >> checked those annotations...) > > > > but like you say, that's historical too. (and if you do want that > > subset, you can still grep.) > > > >> But again, if we're going to fiddle with what's there, what's bad about a > >> flat > >> namespace? > > > > yeah, that's where i always end up whenever i'm thinking about this. i > > can think of several advantages and no real disadvantage. > > > >> (Probably a conversation to have on the list rather than private email. > > > > if you want to announce the erection of a new bikeshed... :-) > > Oh I'd just do it, I just prefer to keep design discussions out in the open > for > historical reasons. :) > > Do you mind if I cc: this reply to the list?
you already did, but for the record "fine by me" :-) > >> I lean > >> towards "dump it all in a single flat namespace", modulo pending would > >> still be > >> a subdir, and global options. So maybe 3 subdirs total: commands, pending, > >> options.) > > > > what goes in options in that world? > > The current "toybox global settings" menu. > > >> Rob > > Rob _______________________________________________ Toybox mailing list [email protected] http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
