The HIPAA initiative strikes me as having some similarity to what happened
in the EDI world a few years back with the failure of XML as a replacement
for EDI.  XML was touted and sold as a magic problem solver, however, it
turned out that the real challenge with integration is not in the messaging
format; it is that disparate backend systems have different business
requirements.  

HIPAA seemes to me to be overly ambitious in this assumption that a standard
document is a magical solution to disparate business systems and processes.
I have not seen business revamping their entire processing systems to
conform to HIPAA requirements, but rather external patches (tape, paperclips
and chewing gum).  

It seems that without the "mass upgrade to every provider's desktop
software" which would equate to a standard business process across the
board, how will HIPAA ever work?  And the same should extend to the backend
systems of the major payors.  Without these commitments, this is going to be
a long rough ride.

Anthony Beecher
EDI consultant
(disclaimer: personal comments, with no relationor relevance  to my
employer)

-----Original Message-----
From: Hayward, Donna M B230 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:07 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: Free Form Text Field Usage


Tom,
I do agree with you for the most part and we shouldn't look to change the
meaning or intent of the implementation guide.  To your point if it isn't
included in the guide it should not be used.  For example, note #1 on page
185 of the dental implementation guide states, "Required when: (1) State
regulations mandate information not identified elsewhere within the claim
set; or (2) to report periodontal charting information."  Should we then
take the approach that periodontal information shouldn't be sent as there
isn't a placeholder defined in the guide?  

Somehow I don't envision a mass upgrade to every provider's desktop software
that will require only HIPAA required fields and will remove all others.
Assuming I'm correct, providers may likely continue to send the same data
they are sending today and at least in our case, the clearinghouse will
provide the roll of HIPAA data collector.  If the data is available and it
would ultimately benefit the provider if the payer continues to receive the
data, it seems like a no brainer to me.  But again, it would have to be sent
solely on a voluntary basis.  

FYI, you'll be interested in knowing my DSMO request has been honored and
rendering provider address will be added to the next version of the dental
guide.  I now need to keep my fingers crossed this particular version will
be adopted under HIPAA.  As for responses, I did receive some direct
responses from others and interestingly enough they have taken the same
approach with the NTE section as we have.  I think we're all trying to do
the right thing by HIPAA but still remain able to conduct business with some
semblance of normalcy. 

Donna M. Hayward

-----Original Message-----
From:   Tom Drinkard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wednesday, January 30, 2002 4:52 PM
To:     [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:        RE: Free Form Text Field Usage

Hi Donna,
I've not yet seen a response to your question, so I'll take a shot.
Hopefully others will agree or disagree as well.

I don't think that you can put a specific data request into a trading
partner agreement unless that data is already in the implementation guide.
Section 162.915(d) of the Final Rule on Transactions and Code Sets (page
50368) says,
"A covered entity must not enter into a trading partner agreement that would
do any of the following:"
   << (a)-(c) omitted >>
(d) Change the meaning or intent of the standard's implementation
specification(s)."

To me, this means that you can't go outside of the existing data elements.
The Rendering Provider Address is not a part of the HIPAA-compliant 837
Dental Claim.  Unlike the Professional Claim, there are no provisions for
using the Facility Address, either.  To request this data anyway would
"change the meaning or intent of the standard's implementation
specification(s)", in my opinion.

If you make this request of the clearinghouse, then you have delegated the
problem, but have not solved it.  The clearinghouse has no access to the
Rendering Provider Address either, since the clearinghouse must put the
transaction into a standard format at some point.  Also, if a dental office
sends a HIPAA-compliant Dental claim to a clearinghouse, then the
clearinghouse would only have the allowed data items in the transaction.
The clearinghouse cannot invent the data, so this does not solve the
problem.

Having said this, the note segments can contain free-form text that just
might happen to be a Rendering Provider Address.  Or, the notes could
contain a collection of pocket depths, or many other things.  I would hate
to see anything that would force the dental office to send one set of
information in the notes to payer A, something else in the notes to payer B,
etc.  This would seem to me to be a violation of the intent of the HIPAA
Administrative Simplification law.

Just as long as the trading partner agreement doesn't ask (demand?) anything
that is beyond the scope of the HIPAA transaction, the provider could pass
this information in the notes, but it would be strictly voluntary (and
somewhat unlikely, in my opinion).

Tom Drinkard
EDIT
(678) 795-1251 (voice)
(678) 795-1575 (fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-----Original Message-----
From: Hayward, Donna M B230 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 1:09 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Free Form Text Field Usage

Can the clearinghouse and payer enter into a trade agreement to use the NTE
free form remarks section to pass data?  The question is a result of data
that is not included in the 837dental guide, in this particular case it
stems from lack of rendering provider address, but conceptually it could
apply to other data as well.

This would be a situation where it wouldn't be required of the provider nor
would claims be rejected if the information were not provided.  It would
simply be a situation where if the provider chose to continue to supply and
we would like to continue to receive, can the NTE be used to pass the data?


I'd appreciate any opinions.  Thank you.

Donna M. Hayward
A CIGNA HealthCare - EDI GATEWAY HIPAA Project Manager
*  Bloomfield: 860.226.3134  Ntwk: 572-3134   Fax:  860.226.7573
*       e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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