25-11-2014 02:18:50 [email protected]: > I think there are a lot of people in the free software community with > objections with the claims being made. My hands aren't tied like some so > I'll point out some of the other issues. > > 1. There have been numerous efforts to free laptops in the past with some > successes. It's not for a lack of trying that ThinkPenguin's not succeed. > Resolving all the issues with modern X86 systems is a near impossible feat. > We've made some effort in this department, but it's more of a token gesture > and the laptops would only be a little bit better. If you refurbish an older > laptop it is easier. > > 2. License violations and a lack of understanding about what free software > is. If something needs a binary blob it's not free software. I'd never try > to make that claim. At best I'd describe our laptops as being free software > friendly at an OS level. That is everything is going to work with free > software distributions even though there are unfortunately non-free pieces > critical to all modern laptops (BIOS, micro-code, and similar firmware). > > 3. NVIDIA is not cooperative so the support for the graphics using the > reverse engineered nouveau driver is years behind- it simply isn't possible > to get half-way decent support for the GT840M graphics in this system at > this time. Of the people who have tried I know there were major issues and > no successes as far as I've heard. Evidence on how Todd achieved some level > of success in getting this to work would be a first step, but it still > isn't a good design choice from a free software angle. Even if you succeed > it's not going to work well enough to claim support and so including it at > all is disingenuous. People will buy with certain expectations- > expectations that Todd can't possibly meet. > > 4. Intel's not cooperative on the coreboot front. Why would you even think > that they'd cooperate now? Google tried to get them to release code for the > Chromebook. They refused. The coreboot developer have been begging for Intel > to cooperate for years. $250,000 USD isn't going to cut it when millions > are already been poured into the effort. Intel does cooperate on the > graphics front though. There simply is no perfect or even good solution to > these problems. > > 5. "Designed" and “manufacturer” are interesting choice of words. Todd > makes it sound like he actually designed a new board for this. There are few > actual “manufacturers” or companies designing pretty much anything. Major > companies usually utilize one of a handful of companies specialized in the > given arena to design and/or manufacture. Components are usually designed > by one of a few big companies valued at billions of dollars (Intel, > Broadcom, Atheros, etc, not Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc). I'm not questioning his > intention to design a product or support the product. That's fair game. > Everybody does it. However I think his choice of wording gets dangerously > close to fraud. It is misleading territory at a minimum. If he was to > become a manufacturer he would need a lot more than $250,000 USD. He should > focus on the overall product design rather than claiming to have designed > or manufactured something uniquely new- for which simply isn't likely in > this context. > > 6. I'm pretty confident Todd didn't talk to the FSF as stated. Comments made > elsewhere by people in the know implied the project was unknown to the FSF > until after it had been announced. > > I have some background knowledge of this laptop. It's designed by a Chinese > company with ties to the Chinese government. It is actually a clone of > Apple's product lineup and a poor machine to build a free software product > off. In China you can get these machines from shady backstreet vendors with > the actual Apple logo. You can actually see just how rampant trademark > infringement is here: > http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-07/20/fake-apple-stores. These > systems are flat out unsafe. These machines are of extremely poor quality. > I've actually “seen” other similar models get seized on import. It won't > happen every time as the US doesn't have many enforcers at the border > scanning for shipments of infringing or illegal product, but it does happen. > > I do think we need a campaign like this, but we should work with one of the > manufacturers whose got someI think there are a lot of people in the free > software community with objections with the claims being made. My hands > aren't tied like some so I'll point out some of the other issues. > > 1. There have been numerous efforts to free laptops in the past with some > successes. It's not for a lack of trying that ThinkPenguin's not succeed. > Resolving all the issues with modern X86 systems is a near impossible feat. > We've made some effort in this department, but it's more of a token gesture > and the laptops would only be a little bit better. If you refurbish an older > laptop it is easier. > > 2. License violations and a lack of understanding about what free software > is. If something needs a binary blob it's not free software. I'd never try > to make that claim. At best I'd describe our laptops as being free software > friendly at an OS level. That is everything is going to work with free > software distributions even though there are unfortunately non-free pieces > critical to all modern laptops (BIOS, micro-code, and similar firmware). > > 3. NVIDIA is not cooperative so the support for the graphics using the > reverse engineered nouveau driver is years behind- it simply isn't possible > to get half-way decent support for the GT840M graphics in this system at > this time. Of the people who have tried I know there were major issues and > no successes as far as I've heard. Evidence on how Todd achieved some level > of success in getting this to work would be a first step, but it still > isn't a good design choice from a free software angle. Even if you succeed > it's not going to work well enough to claim support and so including it at > all is disingenuous. People will buy with certain expectations- > expectations that Todd can't possibly meet. > > 4. Intel's not cooperative on the coreboot front. Why would you even think > that they'd cooperate now? Google tried to get them to release code for the > Chromebook. They refused. The coreboot developer have been begging for Intel > to cooperate for years. $250,000 USD isn't going to cut it when millions > are already been poured into the effort. Intel does cooperate on the > graphics front though. There simply is no perfect or even good solution to > these problems. > > 5. "Designed" and “manufacturer” are interesting choice of words. Todd > makes it sound like he actually designed a new board for this. There are few > actual “manufacturers” or companies designing pretty much anything. Major > companies usually utilize one of a handful of companies specialized in the > given arena to design and/or manufacture. Components are usually designed > by one of a few big companies valued at billions of dollars (Intel, > Broadcom, Atheros, etc, not Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc). I'm not questioning his > intention to design a product or support the product. That's fair game. > Everybody does it. However I think his choice of wording gets dangerously > close to fraud. It is misleading territory at a minimum. If he was to > become a manufacturer he would need a lot more than $250,000 USD. He should > focus on the overall product design rather than claiming to have designed > or manufactured something uniquely new- for which simply isn't likely in > this context. > > 6. I'm pretty confident Todd didn't talk to the FSF as stated. Comments made > elsewhere by people in the know implied the project was unknown to the FSF > until after it had been announced. > > I have some background knowledge of this laptop. It's designed by a Chinese > company with ties to the Chinese government. It is actually a clone of > Apple's product lineup and a poor machine to build a free software product > off. In China you can get these machines from shady backstreet vendors with > the actual Apple logo. You can actually see just how rampant trademark > infringement is here: > http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-07/20/fake-apple-stores. These > systems are flat out unsafe. These machines are of extremely poor quality. > I've actually “seen” other similar models get seized on import. It won't > happen every time as the US doesn't have many enforcers at the border > scanning for shipments of infringing or illegal product, but it does happen. > > I do think we need a campaign like this, but we should work with one of the > manufacturers whose got something we can actually build a free laptop from. > I've talked with others about non-x86 hardware that might work and dollar > amounts that are similar to what Todds trying to raise. > > It'll be a tragedy if Todd's successful because there is real non-x86 > hardware that could potentially be totally freed. It will take $250,000+ to > pull off the manufacture of the laptops (or sourcing of them anyway), > developers (to port a distribution), and resources (time and energy to free > it). Unfortunately ThinkPenguin's got other projects on the table right now > and this is something that really needs a strong focus of time, cooperation, > and resources to pull off. Todd has the time, but should have worked with > the FSF on this and done it right. > > thing we can actually build a free laptop from. I've talked with others > about non-x86 hardware that might work and dollar amounts that are similar > to what Todds trying to raise. > > It'll be a tragedy if Todd's successful because there is real non-x86 > hardware that could potentially be totally freed. It will take $250,000+ to > pull off the manufacture of the laptops (or sourcing of them anyway), > developers (to port a distribution), and resources (time and energy to free > it). Unfortunately ThinkPenguin's got other projects on the table right now > and this is something that really needs a strong focus of time, cooperation, > and resources to pull off. Todd has the time, but should have worked with > the FSF on this and done it right.
+1 Best regards, ADFENO. Have a nice day. -- Assinatura automática – português brasileiro: – Blogue: http://adfeno.wordpress.com/ – Favor não enviar-me documentos do Microsoft Office ou Apple iWork. Ao invés disso, envie documentos em OpenDocument! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/ – Se eu não te desejar um bom dia em meus e-mails, minhas postagens, ou meus comentários; isto significa que estes foram enviados por terceiros. Automatic signature – North American English: – Blog: http://adfeno.wordpress.com/ – Please do not send me Microsoft Office or Apple iWork documents. Instead, send OpenDocument documents! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/ – If I don't wish you a nice day in my emails, my posts, or my comments; this means that these were sent by third parties.
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