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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Believing vs knowing: What you don't know....
(David M. Pelly)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:04:05 -0400
From: "David M. Pelly" <[email protected]>
To: TROM List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Believing vs knowing: What you don't know....
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Martin,
M. Logic is reasoning applied to the physical universe in which
there is
cause and effect. In which there is space and time.
D. Up to here you are correct.
There are realms (to
use a metaphor) in which neither space or time are the rule set.
......................................
D. Your reasoning here is mostly illogical. For one thing, ( if
there are such things as other universes) you cannot talk about the
qualities of different universes in one thread and make
sense. .....................
Or and you can not criticize the qualities of one universe with the
qualities of another universe,( again if there are such things as
other universes ). It is like comparing apples and oranges.
We have to talk about the same thing, (the same universe) other wise
you are not duplicating.
(Also, as an aside, if there are other universes, please provide
proof.)
Also please explain how something can occur without a cause?
M. There are also things like aesthetic, beauty and love which
cannot be
analyzed.
...........................
D. Nonsense. They certainly can be analyzed. It is done all the
time, especially by everyone that is on the upper parts of the tone
and theta scale. That is why people pay big money for beautiful art,
fancy cars, jewelry, and beautiful women are much sought after,
etc..
M. Words like "truth"have different meanings depending on the
context they
are used in: In a court of law - they have rules of evidence. In
objective science, truths are what can be observed using our
perceptions
or with instruments to measure things we cannot
see. ..........................
D. Give me an example of where truth does not mean the right answer
to a problem, or some spin on that definition , such as the facts?
Facts equals truth.
.............................................
M. Here is what Hubbard said about "TRUTH" From a PDC Lecture 1952
"The only lie there is on the track, really -- the only real truth,
you might say, there is on the track -- is that there is no true
datum.
That's a truth, that's a good, high-level truth.
Such concepts as codes
of justice and so forth are made up on bases of workability, and
they're
born out of a PRETENSE ! And therefore, because they are born out of a
PRETENSE and then became factual, you'll find people, whenever they
have
assumed an untrue datum, are getting very serious about the truth of
something. And the harder they insist that something is true, the
surer
you can be that it's not. They might not know that it's not true, but
basically if you followed the reasoning all the way down, you would
find
it fallacious. "
D. Most of that is closer to nonsense and insanity than a high level
truth. Just because Hubbard said it, does not mean it is the
truth. It has to be evaluated and proven to the truth in order for
it to be true. Nothing is true unless it proven to be true.
Yes, the value of a datum is determined by how many problems it
solves and how well it solves them.
The truth of 2 + 2 is 4.
2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples.
The value of that datum is absolute.
If there is a cat in the tree and I see a cat in the tree, and call
it a cat in the tree, and everyone else in town takes a look at
what I am looking at and agrees with me, than that is a truth. I
am telling the truth about what I see in the tree.
And those who do not agree that there is a cat in the tree, and say
that is not a cat, that is a horse in the tree, are called insane,
and those kind of people are institutionalized.
What is the matter with your thinking?
Are you in an institution?
:)
David
Martin
On 21 July 2012 19:10, David M. Pelly wrote:
M. I agree that belief prevents inspection as one tends to filter
perceptions through one's belief system.
D. I like the way you put that.
M. There are however somethings which we are not logically able to
analyze.
D. Not from my experience. There is nothing that I have not been
able to logically analyze. If you can't do that, you do not have
the
right knowledge on how to do so.M
M. And in fact we don't have to.
D. I disagree. You are very wrong there. You missed the whole point
of Scientology. Hubbard said his whole objective of Scientology was
he simply wanted people to take a "look".
I would reword that and say, take an honest look, an impartial look,
a pan determined look if you will.
M. The word diagnosis is based on "gnosis" (mystery) or intuitive
knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient
Gnostics.
D. A mystery is only something that has not been evaluated or
honestly evaluated. To not diagnose a mystery is intellectual
ineptness.
M. Although many regard diagnosis as perfect - those who have
experienced an attempt at some diagnosis by a so called expert know
that it is at best a guess. Somethings don't have to be analyzed -
just witnessed.
D. I disagree. That is part of the problem, not analyzing, not
evaluating. Hubbard wisely said; any datum is only as good as it
has
been evaluated.
Evaluating gives understanding.
There is also a right way and a wrong way to do everything.
Including
diagnose. Including reason. If you diagnose and reason through your
preconceived ideas, your beliefs, and such arbitraries, you will come
to wrong diagnoses and wrong reasoning. If you diagnose and reason
via proven facts and stay intellectually honest and impartial,
(partial to only the highest truth possible) you will eventually
arrive at the highest truth possible.
M. Our language is metaphorical
D. Language can be metaphorical, but I think you mean more
"ambiguous". That is where beliefs come in. Beliefs are ambiguous.
and truths are subject to interpretation
D. Interpreting truths is the wrong thing to do.
When you " interpret" something, ( in the way you intend or imply)
you (people) will "see" "interpret" through their "false and
limiting data" their " banks" their preconceived ideas", and this is
the way a person goes insane and stupid.
If I was brought up in a home where I was taught a lot of bullshit, a
lot of false and limiting data (beliefs), ( like I was and most
people were) then I would interpret wrong. I critiqued everything I
knew and evaluated it, and cleaned out all the BS, all the garbage I
was taught.
[("the garbage in-garbage out" principle) I cleaned out the garbage
in
my mind. I then filled my data base with facts and truths, which can
all be proven. I don't say anything which can't be proven. Now I
think
( analyze) (evaluate) with facts. That is called scientific
thinking.
That is in alignment with what Hubbard said in Dianetics about the
stuck seven, and being programmed with "false and limiting data". The
two first problems he found with the mind. ]
This is the whole point of scientology. That is the meaning of , or
the purpose of "as-ising", which means to call a spade a spade. Tell
it like it is.
Not what you think it is, which means what you were implanted with,(
which means the bullshit you were implanted with).
M. and generally people prefer an illusion they can live with rather
than the truth.
D. Yes, but that does not mean it is right. A whole bunch of wrongs
do not make a right.
The truth ( the honest truth) will set us free.
Illusions and beliefs will not set us free.
M. I have yet to come across an absolute "truth"
D. I recently came across a few words of wisdom that explain your
point well:
Quote from Urantia:
IN knowledge alone, there can never be absolute certainty, only
increasing probability of approximation, but the religious soul of
spiritual illumination knows and knows now.
End.
That "knowingness" comes with improving your thinking process, by
inspecting, evaluating, critiquing, analyzing ( as-ising) everything
you know and everything you see, to determining the real truth, the
honest truth of everything you know and everything you see.
M. and have found that convictions are a more dangerous enemy than
lies.
D. Yes that is true, but that does not make it right.
Beliefs cause convictions.
That is why I say, beliefs and believing are forms of insanity,
which
is the key datum ( re: Hubbard's bring order to chaos tech) that
has
to be isolated and resolved (handled) to bring sanity to this world.
Everytime you use the words belief or believe it indicates various
degrees of defects or deficiencies of various kinds; in knowledge
(education), in understanding,( uncertainty) or lack of better
vocabulary, better choice of words, or something.
No one should ever believe anything, and never use the word believe
or belief, in terms of operating data.
It is the same as "garbage in-garbage out".
Beliefs in- garbage out.
Facts in-facts out.
Truth in- truth out.
I told you before: The truth is nothing more than the right answer
to
any problem. But you did not cog on it.
The trap in this universe is: Every problem has truth ( a real
truth)
, many partial truths, many sometimes truths, many almost truths,
many
conditional truths, many false truths and many lies.
And the real truth is hidden and protected by many layers of lies and
deceptions to protect it from fools, swine and prostitutes.
The more important the truth, the better it is hidden and protected.
And you will never find the truth if you do not ask to be taught the
truth.
If you ask, your teacher will appear only when you are ready.
David
Martin On 20 July 2012 17:36, David M. Pelly wrote: > ************* >
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >
************ > > > > Hubbard said: Scientology is the study of
knowledge and the science of > knowing how to know. > > I have never
heard any one ask the question: Know what? > > The only plausible
right answer is: Knowing how to know the truth > about anything. > >
What is truth? The truth is nothing more than the right answer to any
problem. > > To know means to perceive or understand as fact or
truth; to apprehend > clearly and with certainty. > > Believing is
the
function of raising an opinion or fabrication to the > level of a
fact
without proof. > > Believing is what people revert to in the absence
of facts. > > Believing is intellectual dishonesty, in other words, a
form of lying. > > Believing is a lack of knowledge. > > Believing is
a confession of ignorance. > > Believing means not knowing, or not
having certainty. > > Believing means you do not know. > > Believing
in something, means you do not know what you are talking about. > >
It
also means you do not know how to think, use logic and reason. > > It
also means you have not done your homework, you have not completed >
the cycle of learning on the subject in order have certainty on the >
subject and know. > > > Believing means you do not know the
difference
between right and wrong. > > In order to know the difference between
right and wrong, you have to > be able to reason and reason well. > >
There is good reasoning and there is bad reasoning. > > You have to
reason based on facts and not on hearsay, speculations, > beliefs,
opinions and the like. > > Insanity is the inability to reason, the
inability to discern right > from wrong, impaired judgment. > >
Therefore believing is insanity. > > The function of believing is
intellectual ineptness or grammatic > laziness at the least,
intellectual dishonesty in the midst and > insanity at the worst. > >
If you know, you have no reason to believe. > > If you believe, you
don't know. > > Never comment on anything you are not qualified to
comment on ( do not > know) (cannot prove). > > If you have done
Scientology, and still believe, you do not > understand
Scientology. >
In other words if you still believe after doing Scientology, you >
missed the point, you do not understand what Scientology is all about
and therefore you flunked Scientology. You are not qualified to talk
about Scientology. > > All believers are only intelligent enough to
argue to defend their > ignorance. > > > David Pelly with big fire
extinguisher in hand. >
Hi David,
I agree that belief prevents inspection as one tends to filter
perceptions through one's belief system.
There are however somethings which we are not logically able to
analyze. And in fact we don't have to.
The word diagnosis is based on "gnosis" (mystery) or intuitive
knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient
Gnostics. Although many regard diagnosis as perfect - those who have
experienced an attempt at some diagnosis by a so called expert know
that it is at best a guess.
Somethings don't have to be analyzed - just witnessed. Our language
is metaphorical and truths are subject to interpretation and
generally
people prefer an illusion they can live with rather than the truth.
I have yet to come across an absolute "truth" and have found that
convictions are a more dangerous enemy than lies.
Martin
On 20 July 2012 17:36, David M. Pelly wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you [email protected]
************
Hubbard said: Scientology is the study of knowledge and the
science of knowing how to know.
I have never heard any one ask the question: Know what?
The only plausible right answer is: Knowing how to know the truth
about anything.
What is truth? The truth is nothing more than the right answer to
any problem.
To know means to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to
apprehend clearly and with certainty.
Believing is the function of raising an opinion or fabrication to
the level of a fact without proof.
Believing is what people revert to in the absence of facts.
Believing is intellectual dishonesty, in other words, a form of
lying.
Believing is a lack of knowledge.
Believing is a confession of ignorance.
Believing means not knowing, or not having certainty.
Believing means you do not know.
Believing in something, means you do not know what you are talking
about.
It also means you do not know how to think, use logic and reason.
It also means you have not done your homework, you have not
completed the cycle of learning on the subject in order have
certainty on the subject and know.
Believing means you do not know the difference between right and
wrong.
In order to know the difference between right and wrong, you have
to be able to reason and reason well.
There is good reasoning and there is bad reasoning.
You have to reason based on facts and not on hearsay,
speculations, beliefs, opinions and the like.
Insanity is the inability to reason, the inability to discern
right from wrong, impaired judgment.
Therefore believing is insanity.
The function of believing is intellectual ineptness or grammatic
laziness at the least, intellectual dishonesty in the midst and
insanity at the worst.
If you know, you have no reason to believe.
If you believe, you don't know.
Never comment on anything you are not qualified to comment on ( do
not know) (cannot prove).
If you have done Scientology, and still believe, you do not
understand Scientology.
In other words if you still believe after doing Scientology, you
missed the point, you do not understand what Scientology is all
about and therefore you flunked Scientology. You are not
qualified to talk about Scientology.
All believers are only intelligent enough to argue to defend their
ignorance.
David Pelly with big fire extinguisher in hand.
_______________________________________________ Trom mailing list
[email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
_______________________________________________
Trom mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5145 - Release Date:
07/21/12
Logic is reasoning applied
to the physical
universe in which there is cause and effect. In which there is space
and time. There are realms (to use a metaphor) in which neither space
or time are the rule set.
There are also things like
aesthetic, beauty and love which cannot be analyzed.
Words like "truth"have different meanings depending on the context
they
are used in: In a court of law - they have rules of evidence. In
objective science, truths are what can be observed using our
perceptions or with instruments to measure things we cannot see.
Here is what Hubbard said about "TRUTH" From a
PDC Lecture 1952
"The only lie there is on the track, really -- the only real truth,
you might say, there is on the track -- is that there is no true
datum. That's a truth, that's a good, high-level truth. Such
concepts
as codes of justice and so forth are made up on bases of workability,
and they're born out of a PRETENSE ! And therefore, because they are
born out of a PRETENSE and then became factual, you'll find people,
whenever they have assumed an untrue datum, are getting very serious
about the truth of something. And the harder they insist that
something
is true, the surer you can be that it's not. They might not know that
it's not true, but basically if you followed the reasoning all the way
down, you would find it fallacious. "
Martin
On 21 July 2012 19:10, David M. Pelly wrote:
M. I agree that belief prevents inspection as one tends
to filter perceptions through one's belief system.
D. I like the way you put that.
M. There are however somethings which we are not logically able to
analyze.
D. Not from my experience. There is nothing that I have not been
able
to logically analyze. If you can't do that, you do not have the
right
knowledge on how to do so.M
M. And in fact we don't have to.
D. I disagree. You are very wrong there. You missed the whole point
of Scientology. Hubbard said his whole objective of Scientology was
he
simply wanted people to take a "look".
I would reword that and say, take an honest look, an impartial look,
a pan determined look if you will.
M. The word diagnosis is based on "gnosis" (mystery) or intuitive
knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient
Gnostics.
D. A mystery is only something that has not been evaluated or
honestly
evaluated. To not diagnose a mystery is intellectual ineptness.
M. Although many regard diagnosis as perfect - those who have
experienced an attempt at some diagnosis by a so called expert know
that it is at best a guess.
Somethings don't have to be analyzed - just witnessed.
D. I disagree. That is part of the problem, not analyzing, not
evaluating. Hubbard wisely said; any datum is only as good as it has
been evaluated.
Evaluating gives understanding.
There is also a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Including
diagnose. Including reason. If you diagnose and reason through your
preconceived ideas, your beliefs, and such arbitraries, you will come
to wrong diagnoses and wrong reasoning. If you diagnose and reason
via
proven facts and stay intellectually honest and impartial, (partial to
only the highest truth possible) you will eventually arrive at the
highest truth possible.
M. Our language is metaphorical
D. Language can be metaphorical, but I think you mean more
"ambiguous". That is where beliefs come in. Beliefs are ambiguous.
and truths are subject to interpretation
D. Interpreting truths is the wrong thing to do.
When you " interpret" something, ( in the way you intend or imply)
you
(people) will "see" "interpret" through their "false and limiting
data" their " banks" their preconceived ideas", and this is the
way a
person goes insane and stupid.
If I was brought up in a home where I was taught a lot of bullshit, a
lot of false and limiting data (beliefs), ( like I was and most
people
were) then I would interpret wrong. I critiqued everything I knew
and
evaluated it, and cleaned out all the BS, all the garbage I was
taught.
[("the garbage in-garbage out" principle) I cleaned out the garbage in
my mind. I then filled my data base with facts and truths, which can
all be proven. I don't say anything which can't be proven. Now I think
( analyze) (evaluate) with facts. That is called scientific thinking.
That is in alignment with what Hubbard said in Dianetics about the
stuck seven, and being programmed with "false and limiting data". The
two first problems he found with the mind. ]
This is the whole point of scientology. That is the meaning of , or
the purpose of "as-ising", which means to call a spade a spade. Tell
it
like it is.
Not what you think it is, which means what you were implanted with,(
which means the bullshit you were implanted with).
M. and generally people prefer an illusion they can live with rather
than the truth.
D. Yes, but that does not mean it is right. A whole bunch of wrongs
do not make a right.
The truth ( the honest truth) will set us free.
Illusions and beliefs will not set us free.
M. I have yet to come across an absolute "truth"
D. I recently came across a few words of wisdom that explain your
point well:
Quote from Urantia:
IN knowledge alone, there can never be absolute certainty, only
increasing probability of approximation, but the religious soul of
spiritual illumination knows and knows now.
End.
That "knowingness" comes with improving your thinking process, by
inspecting, evaluating, critiquing, analyzing ( as-ising) everything
you know and everything you see, to determining the real truth, the
honest truth of everything you know and everything you see.
M. and have found that convictions are a more dangerous enemy than
lies.
D. Yes that is true, but that does not make it right.
Beliefs cause convictions.
That is why I say, beliefs and believing are forms of insanity, which
is the key datum ( re: Hubbard's bring order to chaos tech) that has
to be isolated and resolved (handled) to bring sanity to this world.
Everytime you use the words belief or believe it indicates various
degrees of defects or deficiencies of various kinds; in knowledge
(education), in understanding,( uncertainty) or lack of better
vocabulary, better choice of words, or something.
No one should ever believe anything, and never use the word believe
or
belief, in terms of operating data.
It is the same as "garbage in-garbage out".
Beliefs in- garbage out.
Facts in-facts out.
Truth in- truth out.
I told you before: The truth is nothing more than the right answer to
any problem. But you did not cog on it.
The trap in this universe is: Every problem has truth ( a real truth)
, many partial truths, many sometimes truths, many almost truths, many
conditional truths, many false truths and many lies.
And the real truth is hidden and protected by many layers of lies and
deceptions to protect it from fools, swine and prostitutes.
The more important the truth, the better it is hidden and protected.
And you will never find the truth if you do not ask to be taught the
truth.
If you ask, your teacher will appear only when you are ready.
David
Martin
On 20 July 2012 17:36, David M. Pelly wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
************
Hubbard said: Scientology is the study of knowledge and the
science of > knowing how to know.
I have never heard any one ask the question: Know what?
The only plausible right answer is: Knowing how to know the truth
about anything.
What is truth? The truth is nothing more than the right answer to
any > problem.
To know means to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to
apprehend > clearly and with certainty.
Believing is the function of raising an opinion or fabrication to
the > level of a fact without proof.
Believing is what people revert to in the absence of facts.
Believing is intellectual dishonesty, in other words, a form of
lying.
Believing is a lack of knowledge.
Believing is a confession of ignorance.
Believing means not knowing, or not having certainty.
Believing means you do not know.
Believing in something, means you do not know what you are talking
about.
It also means you do not know how to think, use logic and reason.
It also means you have not done your homework, you have not
completed > the cycle of learning on the subject in order have
certainty on the > subject and know.
Believing means you do not know the difference between right and
wrong.
In order to know the difference between right and wrong, you have
to > be able to reason and reason well.
There is good reasoning and there is bad reasoning.
You have to reason based on facts and not on hearsay,
speculations, > beliefs, opinions and the like.
Insanity is the inability to reason, the inability to discern
right > from wrong, impaired judgment.
Therefore believing is insanity.
The function of believing is intellectual ineptness or grammatic
laziness at the least, intellectual dishonesty in the midst and
insanity at the worst.
If you know, you have no reason to believe.
If you believe, you don't know.
Never comment on anything you are not qualified to comment on ( do
not > know) (cannot prove).
If you have done Scientology, and still believe, you do not >
understand Scientology.
In other words if you still believe after doing Scientology, you
missed the point, you do not understand what Scientology is all
about > and therefore you flunked Scientology. You are not qualified
to talk > about Scientology.
All believers are only intelligent enough to argue to defend their
ignorance.
David Pelly with big fire extinguisher in hand.
Hi David,
I agree that belief prevents inspection as one tends to filter
perceptions through one's belief system.
There are however somethings which we are not logically able to
analyze. And in fact we don't have to.
The word diagnosis is based on "gnosis" (mystery) or intuitive
knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient
Gnostics. Although many regard diagnosis as perfect - those who have
experienced an attempt at some diagnosis by a so called expert know
that it is at best a guess.
Somethings don't have to be analyzed - just witnessed. Our language
is
metaphorical and truths are subject to interpretation and generally
people prefer an illusion they can live with rather than the truth.
I have yet to come across an absolute "truth" and have found that
convictions are a more dangerous enemy than lies.
Martin
On 20 July 2012 17:36, David M. Pelly wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by [email protected]
************
Hubbard said: Scientology is the study of knowledge
and the science of knowing how to know.
I have never heard any one ask the question: Know what?
The only plausible right answer is: Knowing how to know the truth
about
anything.
What is truth? The truth is nothing more than the right answer to any
problem.
To know means to perceive or understand as fact or truth;
to apprehend
clearly and
with certainty.
Believing is the function of raising an opinion or fabrication to the
level of a fact without proof.
Believing is what people revert to in the absence of facts.
Believing is intellectual dishonesty, in other words, a form of
lying.
Believing is a lack of knowledge.
Believing is a confession of ignorance.
Believing means not knowing, or not having certainty.
Believing means you do not know.
Believing in something, means you do not know what you are talking
about.
It also means you do not know how to think, use logic and reason.
It also means you have not done your homework, you have not completed
the cycle of learning on the subject in order have certainty on the
subject and know.
Believing means you do not know the difference between right and
wrong.
In order to know the difference between right and wrong, you have to
be
able to reason and reason well.
There is good reasoning and there is bad reasoning.
You have to reason based on facts and not on hearsay, speculations,
beliefs, opinions and the like.
Insanity is the inability to reason, the inability to discern right
from wrong, impaired judgment.
Therefore believing is insanity.
The function of believing is intellectual ineptness or grammatic
laziness at the least, intellectual dishonesty in the midst and
insanity at the worst.
If you know, you have no reason to believe.
If you believe, you don't know.
Never comment on anything you are not qualified to comment on ( do not
know) (cannot prove).
If you have done Scientology, and still believe, you do not
understand
Scientology.
In other words if you still believe after doing Scientology, you
missed
the point, you do not understand what Scientology is all about and
therefore you flunked Scientology. You are not qualified to talk about
Scientology.
All believers are only intelligent enough to argue to defend their
ignorance.
David Pelly with big fire extinguisher in hand.
_______________________________________________
Trom mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
_______________________________________________
Trom mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
No virus found in
this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5145 - Release Date:
07/21/12
_______________________________________________
Trom mailing list
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