************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ Hello to whoever you are,
thanks for your extensive account on experience with TROM so far. I would like to point out some things to consider. a) What do 1500 hours mean compared to eternity? b) The concept of time-track, so strongly promoted by LRH and Scientologists, is comparable to what ancient times people's reality of earth was. They were thoroughly convinced to live on a flat disc. Well, we know better today - but still even that "knowledge" will only be of transient validity. The idea of "Time-track" is the idea of linear time induced by cause -> effect 'modus operandi' of thinkingness where consciousness experiences itself only in a one-dimensional stream directed along past -> present -> future. This is most likely only an apparency in a space-time environment. In actuality we exist simultaneously in a multitude of time- lines. Thus emphasizing too much on past lives will do no good in order to resolve your mind. c) An E-Meter is a useful tool for certain practices (e.g. assessing lists or pin-pointing time). But it is not necessary for practicing TROM. I found it's use rather disturbing. It is actually one of the good features of TROM that you do not have to depend on any kind of MEST-artifact in order to progress case-wise. If you 'hit the bucket' before finishing with TROM you can easily continue with it even in the between-life-area. If you're Meter-dependent you got to wait until you managed to occupy a new body and have it grow up. d) I suggest you find out and understand the definition of "HIDDEN STANDARD". for your convenience: [HIDDEN STANDARD, 1. a hidden standard is a problem a person thinks must be resolved before auditing can be seen to have worked. It’s a standard bywhich to judge Scn or auditing or the auditor. This hidden standard is always an old problem of long duration. It is a postulate-counter-postulate situation. The source of the counter-postulate was suppressive to the pc. (HCOB 8 Nov 65) 2 . is not just a physical or mental difficulty but one by which the pc measures his case gains. A case measurement thing used secretly by the pc. (BTB 18 Sept 72)
Abbr. HS.] e) From your account I could understand that your auditor had no thorough understanding of NED (New Era Dianetics). NED - correctly done - does not just jump earlier-similar ... leaving incidents on the chain charged up. The auditor asks the PC "Does that incident erase" or "does it go more solid". He looks for an earlier beginning or earlier similar incident in the latter case. Never the less it is the aim to get charge off of the incidents. Otherwise the bank would not offer the next one on the chain anyway. It seems the auditor let you return home without having found the basic incident and the postulate(!!!) contained in it. Not very responsible to let you go in a state of several stirred up incidents and all the bypassed charges. f) It further seems that you did not continue long enough on one item when it obviously still produced change. (Others would envy you for that large amount of emotional changes and yawning you managed to get out of L2. VWD! You mention it not explicitly, but it can clearly be seen: you went up the tone scale from Apathy (0,1) ... over the range of Antagonism (... 2,0 ...) ... to Boredom (2,5). Impressive! But why, for heavens sake, did you not continue up towards > 3,0 ? g) You state to be "experimental". Me to. But whenever I run into severe troubles with an experiment, I always drop back to the routine according to the book or source. h) In your account I do not see that you mention RI (except somewhere at the end as kind of side-note). Dennis gave us RI exactly to overcome those difficulties you describe so lively. I do not know if this helps you. But I do really admire your stamina. Consider that - no matter how similar the basic framework of our human minds may be - our cases are so different and vary infinitely and we have had all the time there is to louse-up ourself. If you would place a Gaussian average distribution curve above all the cases of humankind you might find your's far off the center-line (that marks average), somewhere far out at the border areas. I think Dennis was well aware of this and I believe that is the reason why he did not give us estimations how many hours it will take ... There are many other alternative mental technologies out there today. I'm sure there are alternatives to TROM which might work better for you. I would not care about time too much anyway. Actually I think there is noend point. So it will take an eternity ;-). Does not matter, that is the fun
of it. "The Way is the Target. ARC Robin On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:04:01 +0100, <[email protected]> wrote:
Send TROM mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Suffering on Level 2 for 100 hours (The Resolution of Mind list) 2. "OUTCREATE" defined - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 137, Issue 15) (The Resolution of Mind list) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 19:53:21 -0700 From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TROM1] Suffering on Level 2 for 100 hours Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi You need to sign your emails so we know who we are talking to. I see a couple of points from what you have said.1. You are getting change with the processes you are running. You are getting lots of change in the yawning etc that you are reporting. The processes are working and you need to run them some more till they cease to produce change.2. You are frustrated because you have not studied the books to the point where you understand what will result from achieving the goal of eliminating your reactive mind.3. You will not get a permanently floating needle. That would be some continuously no games euphoric condition. God was in this state before he created this universe and the games being played in it but no one is continuously in that state now.In a voluntary games condition you will see interesting things to do and have and people to interact with and you will rise and fall on the tone scale as is appropriate with playing voluntary games.When you are offered a game where another wants to make you a victim you will recognize exactly what the game is because of the auditing you have done on all the games you have played and will walk away as you are not interested in being a victim. When you are playing games in a community and see a fellow player having trouble you will help them to get back to succeeding at the game so you can both continue to have fun.The objective of TROM is to see and recognize the games that are being played by others and by you and making voluntary decisions to play or not play these games with these other terminals as you like.So, relax take a deep breath an continue working at RI and timebreaking. Study the Level 5 chart and puzzle out all the games you have played in your past where:you forced something on others or took something from others or prevented others from taking things from you or prevented others from forcing things on you.It is a very interesting education. You will occasionally have a charged incident to run but most of the time you will just recognize the games being played in your past and let them go.Hope this helps. Keep on TROMing Pete McLaughlin Sent from my iPadOn Mar 13, 2016, at 6:53 PM, The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> wrote:************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ Dear TROMmers, Short version:This email will contain my experience with running TROM for approximately 100 hours on level 2. I did not have any big gains, no ability returned, but had an awful lot of yawning an suffering. The only ability is that I now remember a bunch of previous lives (mostly thanks to scientology auditing)Background and Short History:I was in the church for a about two years, 20 years ago , but it was just dianetics auditing. Being an experimenter type, I was quickly declared and thrown out as a suppressive person. 11 years ago I found TROM, the theory was fascinating. It is simple and intuitive, so I started on level 2. Soon I realized I need an e-meter to really be able to tell if there is a change, so I bought one, and did some sessions, had a big win, but then it was not working, so I give up after maybe 10-20 hours. 2 years ago I visited an ex scientology auditor, and started on the bridge, I did the TR's and objectives, ARC straightwire, Grade 0 and Grade 1 with him (could not continue, moved to another city) and also did 50 hours of TROM with him on level 2. After that I have decided I will do 50 hours of TROM this year. So I will tell you my different experiences with TROM in the following sections.First ExperimentsAfter reading the book I rushed to practice. Of course being inside scientology I understood level 2 as a method to run charged or heavy or uncomfortable events. Well I did not feel much change. Sometimes I felt nervous, but could not decide weather there was change while running the event or not. After I gave up for a little bit -because I could not assess change- I realized I need an e-meter, because that will measure change. So I bought one, and restarted enthusiastically, found a few charged events had a few wins, it was great. But soon I run out of events. The meter did not move any more. It was not a floating needle as Dennis described, it was just sluggish mostly, but nothing to run anymore ... so as I mentioned before, it did not work as advertised. I gave up for thenext 10 years. Scientology auditingI had some free time in my life, so I had the idea, to go try scientology auditing in the freezone. I did the TR's and objectives, ARC straightwire, Grade 0 and Grade 1. Well maybe I am in terrible case maybe not. According to my auditor I am considered an average case, with not much trauma in my life. So level 2 should have worked for me according to Dennis, but it did not! And I tell you while it was most probably later started to work (my idea and Dennis also speaks about this) Every person wanting to go up the scientology bridge have to do TR's and objectives. The objectives part contains processes called CCH and there are 10 of them. One of them called the Book and Bottle. Well if you do not know what it is, I give you an idea here, at least this is how my auditor run it on me. You walk to a bottle on one side of the room tell it's weight, color, then you are requested to walk to a book on the other side of the room and tell it's color and weight. I started around 8 a.m. and I had to do it until around 18 o'clock. You just cannot imagine how hard is to survive that for 10 hours. And the rest of the CCH is not easier by any means. I believe the CCH processes broke my case, because very soon after them I tried TROM again, as you can see in the next section, but this time it worked, well if you call the worst repeated experience of your life working :-)TROM with an auditorI decided to do TROM with an auditor because I was unable to do it alone, and after 10 years of struggling, I came to the conclusion that I need help with this, whatever Dennis Stephens says. Also I did not have that much experience with auditing in general, the rigorous process, and the willpower it needed. We always did 1 hour sessions. After 1 hour I was so tired, that I had to go home to sleep. So that 50 hours of auditing took a long time to complete (2 months almost every day) (of course we did try longer sessions like 90 minutes, but the few times we did, made me so tired, that I was totally exhausted) I took events from my current life, pick an item from them (like a chair, a friend) and compared them with objects in present time. The effect? From a 60 minutes session, I was yawning at least 50 minutes. By that I mean that my mouth was open for 50 minutes and closed for 10 minutes. So one yawn usually takes a minute. Five minutes after starting, my nose started to run, so one hour usually resulted in 5 wet handkerchiefs. I did not run any important or charged event from my life. Just the normal, not charged ones. After about 45 hours the yawning started to decrease on the events. Then one day my auditor asked me if I felt anything different, (I did not), because the needle characteristic on the e-meter changed, he said. Well next day I found out, what he meant. The yawning run out, and I go so angry I could trash the place, and beat up my auditor. Then quickly I reached boredom. We did this a few times, It all happened within one hour: 10-15 minutes yawning, a little anger, boredom, and then nothing, just did TROM until the 1 hour finished.So I decided that maybe from here, I can do it alone. TROM aloneI started to do level 2 on charged events, alone, with my e-meter, 1 hour sessions.The yawning returned to span 90% of the time again.But after about 15 hours I run out of events to process. Whatever I picked up, just was boring, and did not have any effect on the e-meter. Did I reach the end of level 2? I was hoping, but I still could not place, the then next to the now. I mean sometimes yes, but it took too much effort, and only could do it after I run out the charge, and even then it was not perfect. So I definitely did not finish level 2, but could not find anything that would produce change (noticeable by myself on myself, or on the e-meter). WTF should I do now? So I went to amazon, because by this time, the 6 TROM books were available, and I bought them all, and read them. Nothing!What the hell should Ii run in the session then? Dream TROMIn desperation, I came up with the idea to run my dreams on level 2. The idea was so stupid, that I went to my auditor to ask his advice, and to my astonishment, he said, that I should go ahead and do it, because they contain manyunconscious events, probably even events from past lives.So I did it. Every morning I wrote down my dreams (usually only one I can remember) and during the day I run it on level 2. Boy was I in trouble! For the next 20 hours I had to reduce my session time to 30 minutes. It was awful, my jaw hurt from the yawning, an I was so tired, that many times after 30 minutes of auditing I just lay down in my bed, and fall asleep immediately. I did not matter, if I just woke up from a whole night of sleep, after I did a session, I had to go back to sleep again. It took almost 2 months to do that 20 hours of auditing, which is ridiculous, and it hurt me a lot. And how it worked is even worse. I had a dream, I picked a chair from it and run it for 30 minutes, next day I picked the table that was next to the chair in the same dream, that alsogive me 30 minutes yawning. Finishing level 2 seemed impossible.Nothing last forever, and one day my dream run out (no yawning, no e-meter needle movement) in 15 minutes, and whatever other objects or persons I took from the same dream, the yawning did not return. Next day the same happened. WTF should I do now? Luckily the same day I was dreaming a very strange dream. I was in the second word war running from the Germans, captured, and everything looked like in those old war movies. I run it with TROM, it run out, and then -thinking about past lives- I asked myself did I have an earlier similar event? So I had a vague memory of being beaten, I run it, and it got cleaner, I was beaten in ancient Egypt. I run this incident for 2x30 minutes until no change (no yawning, and no emeter movement)Past life TROMI travelled to my auditor, and begged him to help me find past lives, and even though I just got until grade 1, I managed to push him to run some new era dianetics on me. He told me, he will try to run it, it will either work, and then we continue or not run at all, then he can not help me but return to grade 1. We started out with my Egyptian incident, and run with scientology auditing, about 5 past life incidents come up in about 6 hours of auditing. If you know how New Era Dianetics works, you know, that it will not erase incidents, just the oldest one. So you see some incident, and the moment you can remember an earlier incident, you are requested to move to the earlier one, leaving the original unhandled (as I understand it) So I went back home, and took all those unfinished incidents, and run TROM on them. One incident usually run for 60-90 minutes! By this time I could increase my session time back to 60 minutes. So when I finished all the incidents I found with my auditor I was back to square one: I had nothing to audit. And I can tell you this with certainty: It is not possible to recall past lives with TROM, not at the beginning at least. The reason it worked with the scientology auditor was that I closed my eyes the whole time, so I tried the same during TROM sessions: I did not compare anything, I did not open my eyes, I just went through the event a few times (with a lot of yawning of course) and after maybe 15-30 minutes I could open my eyes, and start to do TROM on those objects/persons (with more yawning) which by that time I could clearly recall. I just cannot access past lives with my eyes open, most of the time I just have a feeling, or very faint part of a picture and when I go over and over again, more details come up, maybe later ....My Conclusions- TROM is not a mature technology. It was invented by one man, and as I understand it very few people provided feedback. Therefore it worked for one man, who had very little case to begin with, so it is rather untested, and most certainly will not work for everybody. - It is impossible to understand TROM without really understanding scientology. Dennis does not stress this, but the guy lived his entire life inside or around scientology. It was like breathing to him, he did the original Saint Hill SpecialBriefing Course, but for an outsider?- No timeframe, no statistics. This is the worst in my view. My scientology auditor tells me, that making a clear takes usually 450 hours of auditing. Nowhere in TROM did I see the number of hours. When I started out, I was thinking, that level 2 will take 10-20 hours to complete. Now I have about 50 hours of dianetics, 200 hours of scientology auditing and 100 hours of TROM and hey I just found a few past lives, of which I am sure there are thousands. THOUSANDS. How much time do you think it will take to run out with TROM like 1000 lifetimes, when running one life took me350 hours? Maybe much less. I am just wenting my anger...- My auditor told me that an OT VIII needs around 2500 hours of auditing from zero to OT VIII. OT VII alone takes 1500 hours, so the rest of the bridge takes about 1000 hours. Based on that number, now I see that just to do 1000 hours requires extreme dedication. If I can do 1 hour every day, which is of course impossible, so lets just go with 300 hours a year. Let's say I need 600 more hours of level 2, and maybe 600 level 3. That would be 4 YEARS of very hard, very dedicated work. Am I up for that? Well I am not sure.My 2 cents, which I would add to TROM based on my experienceSo OT VIII takes 2500 hours, deduct 1500 for OT VII, because Dennis does not believes in Body Thetans/Entities which OT VII is all about, that would leave us 1000 hours of auditing. Dennis says by completing level 3 you are above OT VIII. You did not just think that TROM is so much more effective than scientology auditing, and therefore needs less time? According to my experience, they are on pair, judging by the effects (e.g. yawning) they have on me. So to be above OT VIII with a permanent floating needle, well let's just say that will take 500 extra hours of auditing. So 1000 + 500 = 1500 hours. Well that's just a total guesswork, but what matters to me, is that it gives me rough estimates of the magnitudes involved: - You did 10 hours on level 2,3 and declared yourself finished, well haha, I think this is self delusion. - You did 100 hours on level 2,3 and declared yourself finished, go visit an auditor, and check your permanent floating needle I can almost guarantee you, you will even fail the clear certainty test. 100 hours is nothing. Even a clear takes 450 hours. - You did several hundreds of hours on level 2,3 Please, tell me about your experience. - How many past lives did you handle with level 2,3? You did not seriously believe that by running this life, you erased your bank? This life is very pleasant and comfortable for most people today. But you lived 1000 of lives before. Let's say you run x charge of this life, what about the other 1000x? And we did not even go into actual gpm's and the like. - There is only so much charge you can erase in this life, it is not even 0.1 percent of the charge on your whole time track. Did you run that out? Where does Dennis mentions this? Well if you can read between the lines, or read scientology stuff... It takes in my estimates at least 1500 hours to finish level 2 and 3, to be above OT VIII, with a permanent floating needle.So in my opinion, if you want to do TROM:-Go to an auditor and at least finish TR's and objectives, and ARC staightwire. (and yes I could easily run RI and level 2 before I did) -Buy an e-meter, without that you are blind (yawning was a good indication in the last 100 hours, but it just gives me confidence)-Prepare for years of suffering every day-Stack up on willpower. Level 2 is horrible. Could you hurt yourself for years, every single day? -I am not even sure you can do this alone, I mean how an ordinary man have such kind of willpower? That's the whole reason scientology works with the auditor preclear model. Because the auditor's and yours combinedanalytical power is greater than your reactive mind's power.-Stack up on higher level scientology books (1950-1965), I do not think the TROM books are enough, to understand all this. I mean Dennis just mentions past lifes in passing, but if you read early scientology stuff, you will see thatmost charge is not on the current life WhiningCurrently my total auditing time is 350 hours, so maybe from tomorrow I will run out 1 whole past life every day, and in 3 years I will finish. Maybe tomorrow, I will blow all my charges, and will get that floating needle. I will tell you about it then. You see the problem is that when I set a goal, an I give it up, then I have lost a game with my reactive mind, therefore getting down in the downward spiral. And I decided to reach level 3 almost 11 years ago, and I am nowhere near, and most probably I will give up, because Dennis Stephens could not write a fucking number (hours) in his books. Well it was easy for him, he had an easy case to run, but me mere mortal? What about me? If I open the TROM book I could realistically make a decision to start, if he would just wirte 1000 hours for level 2. Because in that case I would not have set my goal for sure, knowing that I do not have the kind of will necessary for this.SummaryIn my opinion TROM is for people like Dennis: OT's from the 1950's and 1960's or OT VIII's of today. They have the background knowledge necessary, a reactive mind cleared and blasted to pieces by hundreds of hours of auditing and the increased determination coming with that kind of case. For anybody else it is like a minefield, of which 95% percent of the people doesn't even realize it is a minefield, because they give up sooner than realizing itor declare themselves finished before even stepping on it.Yes everybody can do it - I have to agree - but how many people have that kind of willpower out of 100?The FutureLife takes us away from our goals, have to manage a thousand things. Have to work, care with the family, sports, hobbies, etc. I am not the kind of guy, who reads about TROM, runs it for an hour and then post it on facebook or an email list,and then looks for something else. I like to do things thoroughly.Will I give up? Most probably I will at some point. Why should I continue? To yawn for 1000 hours more for 3-4 years? Maybe I cannot spend 1 hour every day, so maybe it would take 10 years of yawning. Yeah, that?s a great gain, yawn every day for 3 years is just such a great experience.Anyway I run out of my frustration for this year :-) Would be very happy to get some feedback from you guys.It would make me even happier if you would tell me, how much time did you invest in each level? and how many of you did actually check if they had the kind of floating needle Dennis describes?Kind Regards from some idiot who started TROM a very long time ago and got nowhere with it.... yetPS:I wrote this email in October 2015 when my frustration reached it's peek, and then put it away to think about it.Now I re-read it, and my opinion did not change much.Maybe it's my case? Maybe I am so terribly aberrated that it works easily for everybody except me? It is of course another possibility, the one I don't believe in right now. I just cannot accept the fact that some of you achieved level 2 and 3 in 20-50 hours. TROM works of course, as advertised, judging from my 100 hours of yawning.I'm just saying that it's is a totally immature and untested technic. _______________________________________________ TROM mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:04:45 +0100 From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: [TROM1] "OUTCREATE" defined - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 137, Issue 15) Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Colleen, I'm not sure if your question is directed at me, but will try to answer it anyway. First of all, it is not important _what I mean_ by "outcreate". I'm not the inventor of the term. I've just tried to interpret it by applying some agreed upon rules of translation. Second, Geoffrey C. Filbert created that term and I am not very lucky about that. In the whole text of his "Excalibur Revisited" book "OUTCREATE" appears exactly one time and he did use bold letters at that occasion. I guess thus emphasizing the word was obviously misleading for some readers. One should see that in context of what Geoffrey wrote a few pages above. Then it becomes quite clear that "outcreate" is not meant in a destructive way. Again, if we take e.g. "outperform" it means to perform better than something/someone else (the thing or someone that is "outperformed" then). So the "outperformer", in order to be one, does of course not destroy the "performer". He just makes or does something that performs better. (A thing of natural progress, by the way.) People who's native language is different from English often translate the syllable "out" in a complete different direction. It has a negative meaning like in "to wipe out" or "cancel out" a.s.o. Following along that line of logic the meaning of "outcreate" would be easily misinterpreted as "to destruct a creation" or something like that. Well, why did I state that I'm not very lucky with Filbert's neologism? Simply because it was unnecessary. We already have enough very good definitions for all kinds of creation and its different states at hand. E.g.: [IS-NESS, 1. is-ness is an apparency of existence brought about by the continuous alteration of an as-isness. This is called, when agreed upon, reality. (PXL, p. 154) 2 . something that is persisting on a continuum. That is our basic definition of is-ness. (PXL, p. 91) 3 . i s - n e s s is an apparency, it is not an actuality. (PXL, p. 175) NOT-IS-NESS, 1. trying to put out of existence by postulate or force something which one knows, priorly, exists. One is trying to talk against his own agreements and postulates with his new postulates, or is trying to spray down something with the force of other is-nesses in order to cause a cessationof the isness he objects to. (PXL, p. 64) 2 . not-is-ness is the effort tohandle is-nessby reducing its condition through the use of force. It is an apparency andcannot entirely vanquish an is-ness. (PXL, p. 154) 3 . there are two different conditions of not-is-ness: one is just vanishment. The other one is an is-ness which somebody is trying to postulate out of existence by simply saying, ?It isn?t.? A not-is-ness, in our terminology, would be this second specialized case of an individual trying to vanish something without taking responsibility for having created it. (PXL, p. 100) 4 . not-is-ness is manifested as and is in itself the mechanism we know as unreality. (PXL, p. 55) ALTER-IS, 1 . a composite word meaning the action of altering or changing the reality of something. Is-ness means the way it is. When someone sees it differently he is doing an alter-is; in other words, is altering the way it is. This is taken from the Axioms. (LRH Def. Notes) 2 . to introduce a change and therefore time and persistence in an as-is-ness to obtain persistency. Anintroduction of an alter-is is therefore the addition of a lie to the realwhich causes it to persist and not to blow or as-is. (HCOB 11 May 65) AS-IS-NESS, 1. the condition of immediate creation without persistence, and is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation and the moment ofdestruction and is different from other considerations in that it does notcontainsurvival. (PXL, p. 154) 2. as-is-ness would be the condition created againin the same time, in the same space, with the same energy and the same mass, thesame motion and the same time continuum. (PXL, p. 68) 3 . something that isjust postulated or just being duplicated?no alteration taking place. As-is-ness contains no life continuum, no time continuum. (PXL, p. 91)] To make that clear allow me to give an example for what Geoffrey - in my opinion - intended to express: Imagine an inventor who creates an invention. Some time after he had appliedfor patent someone else has an even better idea which outperforms the firstinventor's idea and thus "outcreates" his invention in that it makes the first patent obsolete. In doing so the second inventor did not commit anovert or overwhelm. He might not even have known of the other's invention. He did not go and drop a bomb at the others factory - which would have beenan overt and a destructive kind of "alter-is". E.g. Thomas A. Edison invented the DC (direct current) electrical generator. He and his financial backers made every effort to promote DC current to become the standard system for power grids and electrical power distribution. Well, the even greater genius Nicola Tesla invented AC (alternating current) as a means for electrical energy distribution. Since Tesla's idea was superior to that of Edison (DC can not use transformers to generate high voltages.AC can do that. It's an issue of efficiency in energy transport - an issueI'm not going into in detail here) Tesla's idea clearly outperforms Edison's. Thus it made DC current - for that particular purpose - obsolete or, asFilbert would have said it: "Tesla OUTCREATED Edison's concept of electricpower distribution." Finally, the example you gave <quote> For example one could imagine out-creating the existing food economy/industry with a system of permaculture and plentiful food forests - <end quote> is one I've seen work very well. What you say can be done on a small scale and it is perfectly scalable. I know that it works, because I already saw before 2008 that things come to a head economically and acted accordingly. I grow my own food since,be mostly self-sufficient and have learned a lot of new things by the way.In that sense I'm honestly grateful to the Elite, the political leaders, the proponents of the banking industry, ... for that they created an environment for me that had allowed me to wake up and act due to a highly increased necessity level in respect of survival. I would not have been motivated enough without that higher necessity level. So I've developed further as a being and I'm lucky because I see that I do not need to destroy or fight their system any more. Instead I use the assetsI have at hand (e.g. creativity) to manage to make things better for myselfand those around me. Have a nice day Robin P.S.: LRH around 1950-52 wrote much about "decreasing the MEST-Universe's power while increasing ones own universe". See Scientology 8008.On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 02:52:50 +0100, <[email protected]> wrote:Send TROM mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE Out-Create (The Resolution of Mind list) 2. Suffering on Level 2 for 100 hours (The Resolution of Mind list) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 12:55:08 -0400 From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: [TROM1] RE Out-Create Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Is this what you mean by "Out-Create"? "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something build a new model (creation) that makes the existing model obsolete" Bucky Fuller is attributed with saying that. For example one could imagine out-creating the existing food economy/industry with a system of permaculture and plentiful food forests -back to an earthly paradise without profit or exploitation conditions....more simple and uncomplicated. I would want to get into the viewpoint of those who oppose, at least.... all limiting non-life postulates were once less limiting life-orientedpostulates (I could be wrong on that). I see it would take great patienceand compassion. colleen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20160313/b606c879/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:53:52 +0700 From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: [TROM1] Suffering on Level 2 for 100 hours Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear TROMmers, Short version:This email will contain my experience with running TROM for approximately100 hours on level 2. I did not have any big gains, no ability returned, but had an awful lot of yawning an suffering.The only ability is that I now remember a bunch of previous lives (mostlythanks to scientology auditing) Background and Short History:I was in the church for a about two years, 20 years ago , but it was justdianetics auditing. Being an experimenter type, I was quickly declared and thrown out as a suppressive person. 11 years ago I found TROM, the theory was fascinating. It is simple and intuitive, so I started on level 2. Soon I realized I need an e-meter to really be able to tell if there is a change, so I bought one, and did some sessions, had a big win, but then it was not working, so I give up after maybe 10-20 hours. 2 years ago I visited an ex scientology auditor, and started on the bridge, I did the TR's and objectives,ARC straightwire, Grade 0 and Grade 1 with him (could not continue, movedto another city) and also did 50 hours ofTROM with him on level 2. After that I have decided I will do 50 hours ofTROM this year. So I will tell you my different experiences with TROM in the following sections. First Experiments After reading the book I rushed to practice. Of course being inside scientology I understood level 2 as a method to run charged or heavy or uncomfortable events. Well I did not feel much change. Sometimes I felt nervous, but could not decide weather there was change while running the event or not. After I gave up for a little bit -because I could not assess change- I realized I need an e-meter, because that will measure change. So I bought one, and restarted enthusiastically, found a few charged eventshad a few wins, it was great. But soon I run out of events. The meter didnot move any more. It was not a floating needle as Dennis described, it was just sluggish mostly, but nothing to run anymore ... so as I mentioned before, it did not work as advertised. I gave up for the next 10 years. Scientology auditingI had some free time in my life, so I had the idea, to go try scientologyauditing in the freezone. I did the TR's and objectives, ARC straightwire, Grade 0 and Grade 1. Well maybe I am in terrible case maybe not. According to my auditor I am considered an average case, with not much traumain my life. So level 2 should have worked for me according to Dennis, butit did not! And I tell you while it was most probably later started to work (my idea and Dennis also speaks about this) Every person wanting to go up the scientology bridge have to do TR's and objectives. The objectives part contains processes called CCH and there are 10 of them. One of them called the Book and Bottle. Well if you do not know what it is, I give you an idea here,at least this is how my auditor run it on me. You walk to a bottle on oneside of the room tell it's weight, color, then you are requested to walk to a book on the other side of theroom and tell it's color and weight. I started around 8 a.m. and I had todo it until around 18 o'clock. You just cannot imagine how hard is to survive that for 10 hours. And the rest of the CCH is not easier by any means. I believe the CCH processes broke my case, because very soon after them I tried TROM again, as you can see in the next section, but this time it worked, well if you call the worst repeated experience of your life working :-) TROM with an auditorI decided to do TROM with an auditor because I was unable to do it alone,and after 10 years of struggling, I came to the conclusion that I need help with this, whatever Dennis Stephens says. Also I did not have that much experience with auditing in general, the rigorous process, and the willpower it needed.We always did 1 hour sessions. After 1 hour I was so tired, that I had togo home to sleep. So that 50 hours of auditing took a long time to complete (2 months almost every day) (of course we did try longer sessions like 90 minutes, but the few times we did, made me so tired, that I was totally exhausted) I took events from my current life, pick an item from them (like a chair, a friend) and compared them with objects in present time.The effect? From a 60 minutes session, I was yawning at least 50 minutes.By that I mean that my mouth was open for 50 minutes and closed for 10 minutes. So one yawn usually takes a minute. Five minutes after starting, my nose started to run, so one hour usually resulted in 5 wet handkerchiefs. I did not run any important or charged event from my life. Just the normal, not charged ones. After about 45 hours the yawning started to decrease on the events. Then one day my auditor asked me if I feltanything different, (I did not), because the needle characteristic on thee-meter changed, he said. Well next day I found out, what he meant. The yawning run out, and I go so angry I could trash the place, and beat up my auditor. Then quickly I reached boredom. We did this a few times, It all happened within one hour: 10-15 minutes yawning, a little anger, boredom, and then nothing, just did TROM until the 1 hour finished. So I decided that maybe from here, I can do it alone. TROM aloneI started to do level 2 on charged events, alone, with my e-meter, 1 hoursessions. The yawning returned to span 90% of the time again. But after about 15 hours I run out of events to process. Whatever I picked up, just was boring, and did not have any effect on the e-meter. Did I reach the end of level 2? I was hoping, but I still could not place, the then next to the now. I mean sometimes yes, but it took too much effort, and only could do it after I run out the charge,and even then it was not perfect. So I definitely did not finish level 2,but could not find anything that would produce change (noticeable by myself on myself, or on the e-meter). WTF should I do now? So I went to amazon, becauseby this time, the 6 TROM books were available, and I bought them all, andread them. Nothing! What the hell should Ii run in the session then? Dream TROM In desperation, I came up with the idea to run my dreams on level 2. The idea was so stupid, that I went to my auditor to ask his advice, and to my astonishment, he said, that I should go ahead and do it, because they contain many unconscious events, probably even events from past lives.So I did it. Every morning I wrote down my dreams (usually only one I canremember) and during the day I run it on level 2. Boy was I in trouble! For the next 20 hours I had to reduce my session time to 30 minutes. It was awful, my jaw hurt from the yawning, an I was so tired, that many times after 30 minutes of auditing I just lay down in my bed, and fall asleep immediately. I did not matter, if I just woke up from a whole night of sleep, after I did a session, I had to go back to sleep again. It took almost 2 months to do that 20 hours of auditing, which is ridiculous, and it hurt me a lot. And how it worked is even worse. I had a dream, I picked a chair from it and run it for 30 minutes, next day I picked the table that was next to the chair in the same dream, that also give me 30 minutes yawning. Finishing level 2 seemed impossible. Nothing last forever, and one day my dream run out (no yawning, no e-meter needle movement) in 15 minutes, and whatever other objects or persons I took from the same dream, the yawning did not return. Next day the same happened. WTF should I do now? Luckily the same day I was dreaming a very strange dream. I was in the second word war running from the Germans, captured, and everything looked like in those old war movies. I run it with TROM, it run out, and then -thinking about past lives- I asked myself did I have an earlier similar event? So I had a vague memory of being beaten, I run it, and it got cleaner, I was beaten in ancient Egypt. I run this incident for 2x30 minutes until no change (no yawning, and no emeter movement) Past life TROMI travelled to my auditor, and begged him to help me find past lives, andeven though I just got until grade 1, I managed to push him to run some new era dianetics on me. He told me, he will try to run it, it will either work, and then we continue or not run at all, then he can not help me but return to grade 1. We started out with my Egyptian incident,and run with scientology auditing, about 5 past life incidents come up inabout 6 hours of auditing. If you know how New Era Dianetics works, you know, that it will not erase incidents, just the oldest one. So you see some incident, and the moment you can remember an earlier incident, you are requested to move to the earlier one, leaving the original unhandled (as I understand it) So I went back home, and took all those unfinished incidents, and run TROM on them. One incident usually run for 60-90 minutes! By this time I could increase my session time back to 60 minutes. So when I finished all the incidents I found with my auditorI was back to square one: I had nothing to audit. And I can tell you thiswith certainty: It is not possible to recall past lives with TROM, not at the beginning at least. The reason it worked with the scientology auditor was that I closed my eyes the whole time, so I tried the same during TROM sessions: I did not compare anything, I did not open my eyes, I just wentthrough the event a few times (with a lot of yawning of course) and aftermaybe 15-30 minutes I could open my eyes, and start to do TROM on those objects/persons (with more yawning) which by that time I could clearly recall. I just cannot access past lives with my eyes open, most of the time I just have a feeling, or very faint part of a pictureand when I go over and over again, more details come up, maybe later ....My Conclusions - TROM is not a mature technology. It was invented by one man, and as I understand it very few people provided feedback. Therefore it worked for one man, who had very little case to begin with,so it is rather untested, and most certainly will not work for everybody.- It is impossible to understand TROM without really understanding scientology. Dennis does not stress this, butthe guy lived his entire life inside or around scientology. It was likebreathing to him, he did the original Saint Hill Special Briefing Course, but for an outsider? - No timeframe, no statistics. This is the worst in my view. My scientology auditor tells me, that making a clear takes usually 450 hours of auditing. Nowhere in TROM did I see the number of hours. When I started out, I was thinking, thatlevel 2 will take 10-20 hours to complete. Now I have about 50 hours ofdianetics, 200 hours of scientology auditingand 100 hours of TROM and hey I just found a few past lives, of which Iam sure there are thousands. THOUSANDS. How much time do you think it will take to run out with TROM like 1000 lifetimes, when running one life took me 350 hours? Maybe much less. I am just wenting my anger... - My auditor told me that an OT VIII needs around 2500 hours of auditing from zero to OT VIII. OT VII alone takes 1500 hours, so the rest of the bridge takes about 1000 hours. Based on that number, now I see that just to do 1000 hours requires extreme dedication. If I can do 1 hour every day, which is of course impossible, so lets just go with 300 hours a year. Let's say I need 600 more hours of level 2, and maybe 600 level 3. That would be 4 YEARS of very hard, very dedicated work. Am I up for that? Well I am not sure. My 2 cents, which I would add to TROM based on my experience So OT VIII takes 2500 hours, deduct 1500 for OT VII, because Dennis does not believes in Body Thetans/Entities which OT VII is all about, that would leave us 1000 hours of auditing. Dennis says by completing level 3 you are above OT VIII. You did not just think that TROM is so much more effective than scientology auditing, and therefore needs less time? According to my experience, they are on pair, judging by the effects (e.g. yawning) they have on me. So to be above OT VIII with a permanent floating needle, well let's just say that will take 500 extra hours of auditing. So 1000 + 500 = 1500 hours. Well that's just a total guesswork, but what matters to me, is that it gives me rough estimates of the magnitudes involved: - You did 10 hours on level 2,3 and declared yourself finished, well haha, I think this is self delusion.- You did 100 hours on level 2,3 and declared yourself finished, go visitan auditor, and check your permanent floating needle I can almost guarantee you, you will even fail the clear certainty test. 100 hours is nothing. Even a clear takes 450 hours. - You did several hundreds of hours on level 2,3 Please, tell me about your experience. - How many past lives did you handle with level 2,3? You did not seriously believe that by running this life, you erased your bank? This life is very pleasant and comfortable for most people today. But you lived 1000 of lives before. Let's say you run x charge of this life, what about the other 1000x? And we did not even go into actual gpm's and the like.- There is only so much charge you can erase in this life, it is not even0.1 percent of the charge on your whole time track. Did you run that out? Where does Dennis mentions this? Well if you can read between the lines, or read scientology stuff... It takes in my estimates at least 1500 hours to finish level 2 and 3, to be above OT VIII, with a permanent floating needle. So in my opinion, if you want to do TROM: -Go to an auditor and at least finish TR's and objectives, and ARC staightwire. (and yes I could easily run RI and level 2 before I did) -Buy an e-meter, without that you are blind (yawning was a good indication in the last 100 hours, but it just gives me confidence) -Prepare for years of suffering every day -Stack up on willpower. Level 2 is horrible. Could you hurt yourself for years, every single day? -I am not even sure you can do this alone, I mean how an ordinary man have such kind of willpower? That's the whole reason scientology works with the auditor preclear model. Because the auditor's and yours combined analytical power is greater than your reactive mind's power. -Stack up on higher level scientology books (1950-1965), I do not think the TROM books are enough, to understand all this.I mean Dennis just mentions past lifes in passing, but if you read earlyscientology stuff, you will see that most charge is not on the current life Whining Currently my total auditing time is 350 hours, so maybe from tomorrow I will run out 1 whole past life every day, and in 3years I will finish. Maybe tomorrow, I will blow all my charges, and willget that floating needle. I will tell you about it then. You see the problem is that when I set a goal, an I give it up, then I have lost a game with my reactive mind, therefore getting down in the downward spiral. And I decided to reach level 3 almost 11 years ago, and I am nowhere near, and most probably I will give up, because Dennis Stephens could not write a fucking number (hours) in his books.Well it was easy for him, he had an easy case to run, but me mere mortal?What about me? If I open the TROM book I could realistically make a decision to start, if he would just wirte 1000 hours for level 2. Because in that case I would not have set my goal for sure, knowing that I do not have the kind of will necessary for this. Summary In my opinion TROM is for people like Dennis: OT's from the 1950's and 1960's or OT VIII's of today.They have the background knowledge necessary, a reactive mind cleared andblasted to pieces by hundreds of hours of auditing and the increased determination coming with that kind of case. For anybody else it is like a minefield, of which 95% percent of the people doesn't even realize it is a minefield, because they give up sooner than realizing it or declare themselves finished before even stepping on it.Yes everybody can do it - I have to agree - but how many people have thatkind of willpower out of 100? The FutureLife takes us away from our goals, have to manage a thousand things. Haveto work, care with the family, sports, hobbies, etc. I am not the kind of guy, who reads about TROM, runs it for an hour and then post it on facebook or an email list, and then looks for something else. I like to do things thoroughly. Will I give up? Most probably I will at some point. Why should I continue? To yawn for 1000 hours more for 3-4 years?Maybe I cannot spend 1 hour every day, so maybe it would take 10 years ofyawning. Yeah, that?s a great gain, yawn every day for 3 years is just such a great experience. Anyway I run out of my frustration for this year :-) Would be very happy to get some feedback from you guys.It would make me even happier if you would tell me, how much time did youinvest in each level? and how many of you did actually check if they had the kind of floating needle Dennis describes? Kind Regards from some idiot who started TROM a very long time ago and got nowhere with it.... yet PS:I wrote this email in October 2015 when my frustration reached it's peek,and then put it away to think about it. Now I re-read it, and my opinion did not change much.Maybe it's my case? Maybe I am so terribly aberrated that it works easilyfor everybody except me? It is of course another possibility, the one I don't believe in right now. I just cannot accept the fact that some of you achieved level 2 and 3 in 20-50 hours. TROM works of course, as advertised, judging from my 100 hours of yawning. I'm just saying that it's is a totally immature and untested technic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20160314/9961287c/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TROM mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom End of TROM Digest, Vol 137, Issue 15 *************************************------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TROM mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom End of TROM Digest, Vol 137, Issue 16 *************************************
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