************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ Hi Robin Correct, this game scale or responsibility scale is something to observe in myself or in a PC not something to tell a PC about. That might be invalidation and counterproductive.
Sincerely pete mclaughlin Sent from my iPad > On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:20 PM, The Resolution of Mind list > <[email protected]> wrote: > > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > Pete, > > thanks for the summary re. "AXIOM 31". > > I agree so far. Just one additional remark: > > Regarding the ways and means PCs justify their own deeds, > an auditor will find out anyway about them. No need > to do 2WC on axioms with him. > > Often he will be inconsistent regarding his opinions on good/bad. > He will switch strategy depending on which flow you run him. > (he uses different measures on "what he did to others" and > "what others did to him"). > > He may prefer Ron's version or Dennis' version or any other > fantastic concept of good/bad as long as it furthers his ends. > I would not worry too much about that. Just be careful to not > be lured into Q & A. > > Regards > Robin > > > ----- > > >> On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 05:32:18 +0200, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Expanding on AXIOM 31 - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 144, Issue 25) >> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> 2. Re: Expanding on AXIOM 31 - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 144, Issue >> 25) (The Resolution of Mind list) >> 3. Re: Expanding on AXIOM 31 - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 144, Issue >> 25) (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 20:39:48 +0200 >> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [TROM1] Expanding on AXIOM 31 - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 144, >> Issue 25) >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; >> delsp=yes >> >> Hi Pete, >> >> thanks for your question. >> >> First of all, Dennis' version of AXIOM 31 is in fact more specific. >> >> Now, consider what does "more specific" say. It introduces kind >> of comparison. In doing that it introduces a limitation. >> >> When Dennis' AX31 is more specific than Ron's AX31 then it is >> more limited or in terms of logic AX31-D is a subgroup of >> AX31-R. >> >> Do we have a consent up to this point? >> >> Certainly life on planet earth in a human body with an emotional >> scale limited to the small bandwidth of 0 to 4, with Dynamics >> limited to only 1 to 8; dimensions limited to 3D+Time; not to speak >> of various other physical restrictions imposed on the organism's >> beingness through its MEST body. E.g. temperature, impact of forces, >> energy-household, ... >> >> The above establishes the reality of life for a majority of people. >> >> If you like you can make a little experiment: Go out in the streets, >> tell people about Ron's AX31. Boy, you better get ready experiencing >> what it means to ARC break people around. >> >> I guess you have enough imaginative power to see my point here, even >> without actually doing that experiment. >> >> The same done with Dennis' "downgraded" AX31 will still cause significant >> lack of understanding in your fellow man. But many will agree that >> beauty and aesthetic are a matter of opinion (they will rather call it >> taste which is the same in that context). >> >> If your game is not to go out of ARC with common people you will >> rather stick with AX31-D when dealing with the average men. >> >> For completeness sake let's for a moment dwell with the concept of >> "more specific" or "restricted": >> >> Now, every time you're specific or restricted in your views it is due >> to your attitudes, believes or even complete systems of believe. >> In other words, your very personal universe. >> >> Certainly Dennis had his specific believes, preferences and views. This >> inevitably must bleed through in the works, communications and deeds >> of a person. And this bleed-through is strongest when he talks of >> "The Philosophy of TROM". Of course it is. It is a deeply rooted >> personal issue. >> >> If someone (was it Ant Phillips?) had not asked >> Dennis to make that tape we, most likely, would not even have this >> nice little chat here about AX31. >> >> And here comes the good news: >> TROM, as a body of technology, would not be any different. The >> level structure, commands, procedure as described in the "Therapy Manual" >> would be exactly the same, no matter if that tape were delivered or not. >> >> Never the less the mind-set of you as a PC and you as an Auditor >> in terms of what you can achieve with and expect from a clearing >> technology, a religious philosophy, a religion or life's value >> in terms of learning experience and attainment of higher levels >> of consciousness, certainly depends on your attitudes and believes. >> My feeling is, that you may progress with more ease the more willing >> you are to adopt the wider view, the less restricted view. >> While doing clearing you inevitably change to more liberal and >> more "spacious" value systems anyway. >> >> >> One of the reasons why people can easily get very angry when >> you dare to confront them with Ron's AX31 or the subjects of >> rightness/wrongness, ethic/out-ethic, good/bad, ... is that >> they can not even clearly define what those words mean. (E.g. >> very common is the mixing up and falsely synonymous use of ethics >> and moral.) >> >> The above is a minor problem. A bit of education and word-clearing >> resolves that. The other much more serious issue is that everything >> that has to do with the subject of good/bad in the wider sense is - >> as can easily be observed - heavily loaded and highly restimulative. >> Of course it is, none is innocent. As an auditor (sometimes even in >> daily life) you're dealing with the power of overt-motivator sequences >> and even worse with all kind of service facsimiles. >> >> The idea of Ron's unrestricted view on AX31 can probably be >> understood better if one tries to take a closer look on Ron's >> aspiration. Especially the high end of the bridge. Those OT levels >> which should set a being free of humanly restrictions, make him >> god-like again. >> >> Do you think a god does care about AX31? About good/bad? >> He takes on any beingness he wants. If he wants to be a devil >> he is. He makes the games and the rules thereof. >> He destroys in order to create anew. Nothing wrong with that >> in his view (in his home universe at least). >> >> Particularly when one tries to tackle with his own case, his own >> mind, his own level of responsibility, ability, ... >> it is beneficial that you acknowledge your own evil deeds first, >> forgive yourself, stop regretting anything, stop holding yourself >> back (what makes you hold yourself back is _never_ what others >> did to you, the only power that can restrict yourself is you. >> Would it be otherwise it would pose a rather paradox situation >> at the level of Native State. >> >> Again, the above may not be of much relevance with TROM (I can >> not say anything from own experience beyond Level 3 currently). >> TROM may be more forgiving than other clearing technology. >> However, as can be seen, TROM works very well with some individuals >> while others seem to have troubles with it. That's why I'm talking >> here for other methods mainly. >> >> This is only what I've found out for myself. I'm not the kind of person >> who wants to convert anyone or push my views down their throats. >> But for me the process of self improvement accelerated significantly >> as soon as I took a wider look on things, a more liberal view >> on life on earth and last but not least at AX31. Interestingly enough, >> it did not at all make me an unethical being. >> >> What I've seen so far (in relatives and strangers alike) >> is that many problems are held in suspension and seemingly do not >> want to resolve in some cases because those beings hold on so >> firm to their believe in their own innocence and irresponsibility >> that they are seemingly resistive against any therapy. >> They jump from therapy to therapy, method to method, try and >> error - nothing changes case-wise. Often they have unrealistic >> expectations and high hopes paired with an unwilliness to >> appreciate the small gains they make. They abandon a method >> too early. Kind of Q&A it is. >> >> Of course they can be cracked somehow. But it's arduous work. >> They stand in their own way solid as a rock. It's fascinating. >> They desperately cling to a viewpoint that "explains logically" >> that all their troubles in life, be it mentally, bodily, sexually, >> economically, ... have one single reason. Usually a specific person >> in their past. >> >> Since their theories had been many, many years in the making they >> develop a kind of selective perception. That means they unknowingly >> accept only data which fits - and even better, confirms - their >> viewpoint. Any other data which does not fulfill that criterion or >> opposes their view is ignored stubbornly or even condemned. >> Occasionally the source terminals are criticized without reasoning. >> >> That's why I advise that one who wears the hat of an auditor never, never >> accepts - or even worse - agrees with a PCs limited view regarding AX31. >> You never sympathize with a PC in that regard. Because if you do, what >> you acknowledge is not the being but rather his reactive bank. >> >> It's nice to show sympathy for your fellow humans in daily life of course. >> Certainly makes life much easier for us all. Feel free to be tolerant with >> AX31 to your hearts content. >> >> But if you love your PC or your student you better use AX31 according to >> its >> original version. >> >> I hope I made my attitude clear now. >> >> >> Best regards >> Robin >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:00:04 +0200, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. The absurdity of false positives - Re: TROM Digest, Vol 144, >>> Issue 24 (The Resolution of Mind list) >>> 2. Re: The absurdity of false positives - Re: TROM Digest, Vol >>> 144, Issue 24 (The Resolution of Mind list) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 06:51:30 +0200 >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [TROM1] The absurdity of false positives - Re: TROM Digest, >>> Vol 144, Issue 24 >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; >>> delsp=yes >>> >>> Hi Pete and David, >>> >>> a discussion of good and bad is always interesting and >>> of some entertainment value. >>> IMO beyond that it is more or less fruitless in terms of >>> therapy and teaching. >>> >>> Reasoning: A therapist/teacher must step out of the agreed >>> upon 'earthly' frames of reference in order to do a decent >>> job. >>> >>> I agree that there is no room for opinions and thus convincing >>> in the above matters. >>> >>> I disagree that the above establishes room for apathy when >>> "convincing-failure" occurs. >>> >>> In regard of 'earthly' matters and/or every-day life issues >>> the handling of the subjects good/bad positive/negative may >>> be different for practical reasons. >>> >>> The whole discussion resolves with Scientology AXIOM 31: >>> >>> [AXIOM 31. GOODNESS AND BADNESS, BEAUTIFULNESS AND UGLINESS, ARE >>> ALIKE CONSIDERATIONS AND HAVE NO OTHER BASIS THAN OPINION.) >>> >>> Well, you certainly know that Dennis Stevens states in "The Philosophy >>> of TROM" that he disagrees with the first part (goodness/badness) >>> of AXIOM 31. >>> >>> For the reasons I gave above I personally tend to Hubbard's version >>> in the fields of auditing, research and study. >>> >>> For dealing with humans in daily daily life I prefer Dennis' version. >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> >>> ------- >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 23:34:28 +0200, <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: The absurdity of false positives (The Resolution of Mind list) >>>> 2. Re: The absurdity of false positives (The Resolution of Mind list) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:47:52 -0700 >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] The absurdity of false positives >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Hi David >>>> I agree with your point but how do you convince the compulsive games >>>> player that this is true? >>>> The compulsive games player is playing a life or death game. He knows >>>> that the end justifies the means and sportsmanlike behavior is for >>>> pussies. >>>> >>>> How do you convince him to change his ways? >>>> >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>> >> >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 23:01:50 -0700 >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] The absurdity of false positives - Re: TROM >>> Digest, Vol 144, Issue 24 >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Robin >>> You said: >>> >>> "For the reasons I gave above I personally tend to Hubbard's version >>> in the fields of auditing, research and study. >>> >>> For dealing with humans in daily daily life I prefer Dennis' version." >>> >>> I find Dennis' version is specifically >>> EVIL is forcing on others what they do not want or taking from others >>> what they do not want to give up. >>> I think that this definition would apply in life and auditing. >>> Can you give me an example where it would not apply? >>> >>> Sincerely >>> Pete Mclaughlin >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Oct 26, 2016, at 9:51 PM, The Resolution of Mind list >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> For the reasons I gave above I personally tend to Hubbard's version >>>> in the fields of auditing, research and study. >>>> >>>> For dealing with humans in daily daily life I prefer Dennis' version. >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > TROM mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom _______________________________________________ TROM mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
