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Hi Robin,
My conclusion is that the meaning of punching in or punching out is either what you said To Impress (As in leaving a hole, a mark, or a trauma) or To Press in the sense of pushing a button repetitively. I will be down to two possibilities. Regarding the 'mock up' vs. 'get the idea' wording I also agree that Dennis probably wouldn't mess up the two accidentally. As I mentioned with Pete I did try doing level 4 by mock up but it was a lot of work and a little weird, with some considerable changes. Maybe I should've been more focused in the weird part and trying to focus on that instead of focusing in making a high quantity of mock upsinstead. That way I could get closer to experiencing the feeling or idea of the overwhelm. Time to put this to practice now :) Thanks again, Marcus 2017-02-14 9:51 GMT-02:00 The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected] >: > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 01:14:51 +0100, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Marcus, > > thanks for the feedback. You pinpointed a couple of issues on which I > wanted > to expand anyhow in more detail. > > Re. 1) > I share your viewpoint regarding importance of definitions. > The problem of multiple meaning and synonymous use of words in everyday > language is always present. And on the other hand there is the need for > precision in specialized fields. > > When we look at the context in which a word is used we can often derive > the particular meaning the author had in mind. > > You mentioned "know", which is a good example for multiple interpretations. > > In the context of TROM: In the theoretical parts of the TROM-writings you > will find that Dennis based TROM on a theory of games play for the purpose > of generating sensation. A key-component in it is "effect". > E.g. the full name of the chart is: > "The Postulate Failure Cycle Chart *regarding an effect*". > > [EFFECT, 1 . receipt point and *what is received at the receipt point*. > (PAB 30) 2 . a potential receipt of flow. (COHA, p. 258)] > > The effect must be created somehow. (Somehow actually means by postulate.) > If there is no one around to "know" the effect then there will be no > effect as > well. (I omit the case where someone makes an effect on himself to keep it > simple.) Therefore in that context "to know" should be considered as: > to experience, to perceive, to sense, ... an effect. One could even say: > to learn the effect or to get familiar with the effect. > > Re 2.) > Yes, very right. > > It's good to make it a habit to word-clear the auditing > commands thoroughly to get the meaning right. > Whenever you have the source-material available you should try to find out > for yourself. Another person can only support you as far as with > hints or suggestions which stimulate your own logical thinking > capabilities. > > Re. 3.) > Right, let's say you consider to do something, or desire to bring something > into existence, or create something. The outcome in the physical reality is > dynamic. In the sense that there is an action or movement. Therefore the > inference of a "dynamic connotation" on the part of the postulate - which > causes the physical manifestation - is natural. Any action or dynamic > - as far as we can understand it right now - involves the factor of time. > > [TIME, 1. time is basically a postulate that space and particles will > persist. > (The rate of their persistence is what we measure with clocks and the > motion > of heavenly bodies.) (PAB 86)] > > [CONSIDERATION, 1 . a thought, a postulate about something. (BTB 1 Dec 71R > IV) 2. a consideration is a continuing postulate. (5702C26) 3 . the highest > capability of life, taking rank over the mechanics of space, energy and > time. > (COHA Gloss)] > > [CREATE, make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness. > (FOT, p. > 20)] > > Feelings, sensations, ... can be the by-product of games play. Since > games can be dissected into complex structures of postulates, consequently > postulates are senior to feelings, ideas, sensations, thinkingness, motion, > emotion, effort, force, energies, flows, masses, .... and this list goes > on infinitely ... the more fascinating items certainly are: > FIRST POSTULATE, not know. (PAB 66) > SECOND POSTULATE, know. (PAB 66) > THIRD POSTULATE, 1. forget. (PAB 66) 2 . forgettingness. (SH Spec 35, > 6108C08) > FOURTH POSTULATE, remember. (PAB 66) > > Re. 4.) > I'm glad you mention this point. After doing the previous write-up I've > been pondering for quite some time what Dennis could have had in mind. > It's odd that he introduces a new word - "punch" - here. I'm actually > not able to grasp that intellectually (the translation into my native > language > (German) does make it even more vague). But never the less it makes sense > when > approaching it by using intuition. My chain of association is as follows: > punch -> press -> impress -> Yep, that's it; to make an impress. That makes > certainly sense in regard of a feelings or ideas. What else is a sensation > for a human being than the imprint or impression on a physical level? And > since our existence as Man is not restricted to the physical plane > exclusively there must be equivalents in the mind and the soul as well. > > From Dennis' track record we can deduce that he was experienced enough to > deliberately avoid phrases like e.g. "mock up the idea of being forced to > know" or "mock up being forced to know" or "find an incident of being > forced to know". That would be different processes with other outcomes > than: > "get the idea of being forced to know" > > The "punch" - or whatever - part tries to make it more compatible with > human > thinking habits. We got used to imagination of pictures rather than to > ideas. > The idea or concept might appear more fleeting and therefore must be > refreshed > in mind again and again in order to be held for an extended period of time. > > A very good example and exercise in that regard is the "Surprise Game" > which > Dennis described. The game has two different components: There is the mock- > up part (some space, the box with the lid, the movement of the lid, ...) > and > then you have the "surprise". The feeling of surprise. An idea or concept > by > itself. Comparably intangible but never the less perceptible; subject to > awareness; although of lesser density than the mock-up. Still a Thetan is > so much more interested in the surprise than the box. Simply because the > idea is much closer to theta in terms of wavelength than a mass. > > [MOCK-UP, v. 1. to get an imaginary picture of. (COHA, p. 100) —n. > 1. “mockup” is derived from the World War II phrase which indicated a > symbolized > weapon or area of attack. Here, it means in essence, something which a > person > makes up himself. (Scn Jour, Iss 14-G) 2. a mock-up is more than a mental > picture; it is a self-created object which exists as itself or symbolizes > some object > in the mest universe. It is a thing which one can be. (Scn Jour, Iss 14-G) > 3 . a full > perceptic energy picture in three dimensions created by the thetan and > having > location in space and time. Now, that’s the ideal definition. A mock-up is > something the thetan puts up and says is there. That’s what a mock-up is. > (9ACC-24, 5501C14) 4 . we call a mental image picture a mock-up when it is > created by the thetan or for the thetan and does not consist of a > photograph of the > physical universe. (FOT, pp. 56-57) 5 . any knowingly created mental > picture that > is not part of a time track. (HCOB 15 May 63)] > > As well he gives an explanation for the purpose of L4 and processing in > general: > > {Purpose: The systematic discharge of the eight classes of > overwhelms. > The completion of Level 3 signifies the end of your mind > impinging upon you in session involuntarily. However, it > will still be found to impinge upon you involuntarily in life to > some degree, ..... > > ... There are clearly still things in that thar mind of yours that > you know not what of. This is the whole subject of Level 4. > Once Level 3 is complete you’ll find that you have to actively > stimulate your mind in session before any of it will appear. > .....} > > The main difference between restimulation in life and restim. > in session is that the latter shall be under controlled, and safe > circumstances. Very much like when a pilot learns to fly first in > a flight-simulator instead of the real airplane. > > So when you're beyond L3 the usual methods for self-restimulating > your mind will not work any more. Below L4 you have tried to look > at your track for significant incidents which you discharged then > with time-breaking. > > The significances come along with the images as well and may have > been cause for somatics, misemotions, revelations of unknowns, a.s.o. > > But from L4 onward you take a different approach. > You impress on yourself what it is like to be exposed to an > overwhelming effect - or in other words - what it is like to be > "forced to know" (as in the first class of overwhelms). > That experience certainly has a particular quality to it. > > Ok, I've tried to tell the story here with different words - in > my own words - and hope that you can find some inspiration and > hints for your own conclusions. > > Best wishes > > Robin > > ----- > > Thanks for taking the time for this write up Robin. It did help again and I >> found out we messed each other's words multiple times in the first >> exchange >> XD. I think you cleared out all of these confusions this time. :) >> >> Since the text are a bit long I just commented on the topics you addressed >> trying to show you that I understood your message. If something is wrong, >> please, feel free to correct me. >> >> 1) You warned about the importance of definitions, instead of copying >> others' methods of running the commands >> >> The language barrier is something which I keep in mind but which I may >> forget sometimes to double-check. My english comprehension is pretty good >> though. >> >> I may be mixing meanings here. Leoncio is also a portuguese speaker and >> actually wrote a translation of Trom. He seemed to have done pretty good >> in >> Level 4. This may be a good time to read it! >> >> Similar to english, portuguese has a bunch of synonyms for 'know' with >> slightly different shades of meaning. This is why I asked what exact >> synonimous one would keep in mind. At first, it seems to me there's no >> exact equivalent of know in portuguese but I think that to take the >> broadest range of meanings would be the right answer for this issue. >> >> >> 2) Regarding your reservation in giving the correct way of doing the Level >> 4 command >> >> I understand that. Many of LRH's processes I've studied sound odd and/or >> vague. The purpose of this reservation is to develop the person's >> confidence in figuring this stuff out on his own and experience the truths >> directly rather than being told, I assume. The rule would be that there is >> no right way to start the process, as long as you have the definitions >> correctly. >> >> The root of my problem may be that I've got a lot of extra information >> already, and that may have made me impatient or critical. For example, I >> know of people who got this process producing the intended results on the >> first attempts, and there are also some people who seemed to have slided >> through all the levels of Trom. But I also know that there are easy >> running >> (PC's) people and also people with lots of previous processing done >> besides >> Trom. >> >> I've actually been doing the smaller exercises in definitions and examples >> you've suggested, just not in paper. That seems like a good idea. Example: >> Many times I'd be wondering about an example which seemed to involve >> multiple overwhelms but Dennis himself alerted to that. >> >> >> 3) You highlighted the difference between Postulate vs Concept >> >> I'm not sure what exactly is meant by a postulate being dynamic and >> involving action (it just reads odd to me since I rarely think of action >> in >> other context except the physical one), but I could take an educated >> guess: >> >> As opposed to a concept which is a construction based on other previous >> existences a postulate would be itself an independent existence which >> could >> cause changes in other existences or exist itself regardless of those. >> >> >> 4) One last question. You mentioned the quote below which is from the Trom >> book in the level 4 section. It has a couple of phrasal verbs I haven't >> find a formal meaning for. "Punch into" and "punch out" are the same thing >> here, right? It means "to try and hold it into the mind" and perhaps "also >> intensify it or use it in the hardest degree", right? >> >> "Just punch the concept into your mind, and Timebreak any incident that >> shows up. Don?t try and force the pace; just take your time. Now punch out >> the ?Forced to know? idea again. Get anything that shows up Timebroken. >> Continue with this command until nothing further shows up, and you?ve run >> it dry. Now run RI." - p.49 of trom >> >> 2017-02-10 17:49 GMT-02:00 The Resolution of Mind list < >> [email protected]>: >> >> ************* >>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>> ************ >>> Hi Marcus, >>> >>> please find my comments interspersed in the text below. >>> >>> Thanks for your answer. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> You're welcome >>> >>> I added more questions in your response in case you could clarify it a >>> bit >>> >>>> more. Don't worry about answering each one of them. Perhaps one >>>> paragraph >>>> could answer them all. I just used a lot of questions to try to show you >>>> what is my current level of knowledge since I haven't been in the CoS >>>> and >>>> have done very few of other processing besides Trom. >>>> >>>> 2017-02-09 8:28 GMT-02:00 The Resolution of Mind list < >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> : >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ************* >>>> >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>> ************ >>>>> Hi Marcus, >>>>> >>>>> Re. Part 1 of your inquiry: >>>>> >>>>> Let's take a look at the command first. >>>>> It's quite straight forward: >>>>> >>>>> "Get the idea of being (forced to know)" >>>>> >>>>> (E.g. for the 1st class of the eight classes of overwhelm) >>>>> >>>>> The general key-word in that command is the word "idea". >>>>> It specifies the flavor of process we're dealing with. >>>>> In order to understand that, please see definition below: >>>>> >>>>> [CONCEPT RUNNING, the preclear ?gets the idea? of knowing or not being >>>>> and >>>>> holds it, the while looking at his time track. The concept runs out, or >>>>> the >>>>> somatic it brings on runs out, and the concept itself is run. It is not >>>>> addressed at individual incidents but at hundreds. (Scn 8-80, p. 29)] >>>>> >>>>> Now, what is an idea? >>>>> This can be described in terms of what it isn't or in terms of >>>>> its opposite. E.g. >>>>> OBJECTIVE, dictionary definition "of or having to do with a material >>>>> object >>>>> as distinguished from *a mental concept, idea or belief*." >>>>> >>>>> So an idea can be best considered as "a mental concept" for our >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That definition of concept running is very clarifying to me. I even >>>> read >>>> the book of where it's from very recently but the book didn't contain >>>> any >>>> examples so I didn't connect it with level 4. >>>> >>>> Actually the definition - which is out of the book 8-80 (Chapter 8, page >>>> >>> 19f) - >>> is a process/command example by itself. I admit, this can easily be >>> overlooked. >>> You can have a concept of anything, e.g. a concept of confusion. The top >>> and bottom >>> points on the scales of the Chart of Attitudes (See Handbook for >>> Preclears) make >>> good concept material. Other good items to run by concept are e.g. >>> Beauty, Ugliness, Cause of ugliness, Cause of beauty, No-sympathy, >>> Sympathy, >>> Good, Evil. >>> The command line could be: "Get the idea (or concept) of <item>" "hold >>> the >>> idea/concept of <item>" - PC originates whatever comes up - A. >>> acknowledges. >>> One can adapt that easily to solo-auditing requirements. After being >>> acquaint >>> with the process you will omit telling yourself the command and ack. and >>> just put up the idea or concept and hold it in your mind. >>> In TROM L4 you do the same. Your <item> is one of the "eight classes of >>> overwhelm" in the order as given in the TROM-materials. >>> >>> >>>> Your analysis of "know" into the two distinct meanings is quite right. >>>>> But in my view it is easier to think about it in terms of postulates at >>>>> L4. >>>>> Namely opposing postulates. (In this case your's would be MNK >>>>> while your opponent's is MBK. Which are opposing or conflicting >>>>> each other). >>>>> >>>>> The explanatory text in the L4 section of the TROM material talks >>>>> about "punch the concept into your mind" or "now punch out the "forced >>>>> to know" [note: this is equivalent to: "Must Be Known" (= MBK) >>>>> postulate] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, I liked this part of your response because it went a little more >>>>> >>>> into >>>> the specifics. But, I read from previous list contributors which also >>>> suggested the use of pure postulates in level 4 (mind that the idea of >>>> postulate processing is an idea that is still new and confusing to me in >>>> practical manners so I may be using it wrongly here). Some of them >>>> described the overwhelm level as being a situation where there are no >>>> more >>>> opposing postulates since the game has already ended. So I'm supposing >>>> there would be no more MNK in the example you gave. Is that correct >>>> This is the part where it starts getting confusing. >>>> >>>> >>> Yes I see. My explanation was not clear enough here. At L4 you're not >>> required to put up the postulates itself. I've introduced postulates only >>> to explain what is going on at postulate-level in the case of overwhelm. >>> From what you write below I can see now that you have a good >>> understanding >>> in that regard already. >>> In a moment we go into more detail. >>> >>> For our reference I place below some definitions that fit in here: >>> >>> [OVERWHELMING, 1. as a person begins to be unwilling to overwhelm, he, of >>> course, begins to be unwilling to win and so loses pan-determinism and >>> sinks >>> into self-determinism. Games are, for our auditing purposes, "contests in >>> overwhelmings." The primary overwhelming is to take space. (PAB 80) 2 . >>> overwhelming does not consist of space, energy et al. It is the idea that >>> an >>> overwhelming has occurred. The winner is convinced that he has >>> overwhelmed the opposing player. The loser is convinced that he has been >>> overwhelmed. (PAB 80) 3 . to push in too tight. (SH Spec 57, 6109C21)] >>> >>> [OTHER-DETERMINISM, 1. simply something else giving you orders or >>> directions. (8ACC-6, 5410CM08) 2 . something has so thoroughly >>> overwhelmed >>> the pc that he is it. (HCOB 7 May 59)] >>> >>> So should I get the idea of an artificial complementary postulates >>> >>>> situation MK + MBK with something else which would identify the >>>> overwhelm? >>>> >>>> Or should I mockup the game situation (MNK vs MBK) with an extiguishing >>>> of >>>> my MNK postulate? How would that be? Because it seems the example you >>>> gave >>>> me looks very similar to a Level 5 process. >>>> >>>> >>> Thanks for giving me a better reality of your level of understanding >>> here. >>> >>> To give you an explicit answer in the sense of "how you should execute >>> the >>> command <....>" would be a breach of the auditor's code. Since I'm >>> not your auditor it would perhaps be excusable. But no, I can't give an >>> explicit interpretation of the command because a) it could be wrong; >>> or b) deprive you of some cognitions. Let's see if there is some >>> work-around possible. >>> >>> I assume the meaning of the command line in terms of each of its words >>> and >>> finally in terms of what the whole sentence means is clear to you. >>> If not, here is word-clearing in a nutshell: >>> >>> Look up the definition of each word you feel not 100% confident about >>> in a good dictionary. Clear all unknown words inside the definitions. >>> Make sentences with the word until you feel confident. >>> Perhaps a translation into your native language can be useful. >>> >>> Invent examples for all kinds of overwhelms on any >>> level you care (physical, emotional, ...) >>> To add mass you may demonstrate the words and concepts they represent by >>> means of small objects, clay-mass or draw sketches. >>> >>> Now, what do you think is the common characteristic or the common idea >>> behind all those examples you have looked at? What is left as the common >>> essence, principle, concept or idea inherent in all those examples? >>> >>> It's what's left when you strip off all the pictures, masses, energies, >>> ... >>> The things and situations are gone. What's left is the meanings only. >>> >>> A meaning of course goes hand in hand with a certain feeling or rather >>> a conviction or opinion (see definition of OVERWHELM above). >>> >>> It's precisely at the point of overwhelm where the conviction dawns >>> on the part of the overwhelmed that he has lost now - while the >>> opponent realizes the fact of his victory. You will probably agree that >>> those convictions differ somehow according to a specific class of >>> overwhelm. >>> >>> >>> A demonstration for an idea/concept: >>> You sure have at times looked at abstract paintings, haven't you? >>> You may not have recognized a distinct object in the picture. But you >>> may still have grasped it's inherent significance. You might have got >>> the idea the artist had in mind. The meaning often induces a specific >>> feeling: the feeling like recognition or cognition - in the observer. >>> The emotions that are evoked (or absent) in the observer are something >>> else. >>> >>> .... >>> >>> Do you have an idea/concept of each of the eight classes of overwhelm >>> now? >>> Is so, that means you can hold the specific concept in your mind somehow. >>> >>> I say "somehow" because there is no need to worry if this >>> seems to be difficult at first. It will probably get easier with doing >>> the >>> exercise. >>> The conceptual idea will become less and less alien to you. And do not >>> be surprised to have cognitions along that line in regard of concepts >>> itself in addition to what L4 offers in regard of the subject of >>> "overwhelm". >>> >>> As a general rule: A concept is not a picture, a mass or a mock-up like >>> you do in e.g. RI. In terms of wavelengths it is much shorter or >>> "lighter". >>> In that respect it's closer to a postulate but it's not a postulate. >>> >>> [POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the consideration >>> generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom use >>> in >>> the >>> English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate, >>> selfcreated truth. >>> He posts something. He puts something up and that?s what a >>> postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that >>> thing >>> which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, on >>> the >>> part of >>> the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . that >>> selfdetermined >>> thought which starts, stops or changes past, present or future efforts. >>> (APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)?v. 1 . in Scn the >>> word >>> postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a >>> specially >>> applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) 2 . >>> t o >>> conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future >>> or to nullify >>> a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or ?think? a >>> concept. >>> A >>> postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just plain thinks. It >>> has a >>> dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >>> >>> >>> And if it's supposed to be like a Level 5 similar process (I'm makig a >>> big >>> >>>> assumption now that level 5 is also concept running or very similar) >>>> >>>> >>> Yes there is a similarity. But - as we have seen above - it is different >>> from running a concept. Postulates do represent rather the building >>> blocks >>> of a concept. >>> >>> should >>> >>>> I use a mock up or a real object at a distance to represent my opponent? >>>> >>>> >>> The command line does not say so, right? >>> The safe assumption is that it's desirable to avoid any "crutches" to >>> fulfill the request or command. Keep it as simple as possible. >>> Never the less you may benefit to find into your final mode of >>> operation by using some "mental tricks" like a mock-up to start. >>> Similar to using water-wings when learning to swim. But one wants >>> to get rid of them as soon as possible. >>> >>> What would be the main differences of level 4 and level 5 running >>> regarding >>> >>>> each individual command? Like, how would it be different to run an >>>> overwhelm in level 5 compared to the running of it in level 4? (I'm >>>> asking >>>> this one because Dennis enters in much much more detail about level 5 >>>> compared to level 4) >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, that's true. >>> >>> L5 goes through the whole PFC-chart which is composed of 16 lines. >>> L4 deals with the non-game situations only - or in other words - the >>> overwhelms only. >>> >>> Besides that, Level 5 takes apart the situations (including the concepts >>> of >>> overwhelms) into its postulate components. >>> Please take a look at the last line of the POSTULATE definition again: >>> >>> [A postulate infers conditions and *actions* rather than just plain >>> thinks. >>> It *has a dynamic connotation*. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >>> >>> In terms of "action" and "dynamic connotation" we see a main difference >>> to the comparably static character of a thought, idea, concept. >>> >>> Dennis uses a lot of verbs on the L5 tape which make it clear that >>> there is a dynamic quality involved. >>> >>> Contrary to that, you "punch out your concept", hold it there, punch it >>> out again as necessary ... wait and see what comes up. >>> >>> That leads immediately to the answer of your 2nd part of the question: >>> >>>> >>>>> 2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4, >>>>> >>>>>> meaning >>>>>> what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and what >>>>>> visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new material >>>>>> showed up. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The mental process, as far as I do it, does not contain any >>>>> visualizations, >>>>> thinkingness in terms of phrases or symbols. There are no pictures >>>>> involved >>>>> nor emotions or feelings. Its simply putting up the mental concept >>>>> of the overwhelm situation. It could be described as the generic idea, >>>>> essence or abstraction of a myriad of exemplary events. >>>>> >>>>> This mental activity will cause the show-up of feelings like guilt, >>>>> blame, >>>>> shame, regret or even whole scenes. Time break as necessary. >>>>> Then repair your demand for havingness by your favorite method. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this shed some light on the issue. >>>>> >>>>> Success >>>>> >>>>> Robin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marcus >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Did that clarify at least some of your questions? >>> >>> Best >>> Robin >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TROM mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170213 >> /7446d416/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TROM mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> >> End of TROM Digest, Vol 148, Issue 14 >> ************************************* >> > _______________________________________________ > TROM mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >
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