Dean Moore wrote:
> > DAVEH: When you use the term "we" Carroll, are you just referring to
> those protesters who use those tactics? Surely you don't think all
> Protestants agree with using such methods, do you?
>
> #Dean writes:
> Not all Christians agree that one should open air preach-but Jesus said to
> do so.
DAVEH: I think there is a big difference between open air preaching, and making fools
of oneself while preaching in public.
> Not all that claim to be Christians are in fact Christians, Dave.
DAVEH: I concur. I suppose the the question might be pondered.......who can
rightfully decide if one is a Christian? Do you think a "lunatic" who proclaims
himself to be a Christian will be taken seriously? If you think not, then I would ask
if a
Christian acting like a lunatic would be taken seriously by anyone other than another
lunatic who thinks himself a Christian?
Personally, I'm not too concerned about who thinks themselves Christian, and who
doesn't. In my book, a man's relationship with Jesus is between himself and the
Christ, and I'll leave judgment of such to the Lord. From a pragmatic standpoint
though,
the dictionary definition works in today's world. A Christian is somebody who
professes to follow/believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and/or belongs to a
"Christian church".
> I met a man in a monkey suit in front of the Temple jumping around and
> mocking our beliefs-while shouting as a preacher preached-He claimed to be
> a Mormon. Do you believe he was?
DAVEH: Probably. I doubt a non-LDS person would think of turning the table on the
lunatics. Most folks motivated to do something in return would probably tend towards
violence if they got up the gumption. Sounds like somebody (most likely Mormon)
decided to turn a potentially explosive situation into a humorous event to alleviate
tensions. Did it work, Carroll? Was the stress relieved, or were there any signs of
violence or unruly behavior? I remember you (or perhaps something I read elsewhere)
mentioned that a couple LDS folks had been arrested at another (I assume) event. Did
the gorilla have a calming effect in this event?
> Do you agree with his behavior?
DAVEH: If it helped relax the tension in the crowd......then, yes.....I think it may
have been a good idea. I assume you disagree? If so, do you think the anti-Mormon
protesters were offended by the gorilla?
> > > disallows one to call themselves Christians-which untill appx. 12 yrs
> ago
> > > Mormons would not call themselves Christians-
> >
> > DAVEH: Huh??? You've lost me on that one. What are you talking
> about, Carroll?
>
> # Dean writes:
> Check your LDS history-Your usage of the Term "Christian" is recent.
DAVEH: ROTFLOL.......What have you been smoking, Carroll!!!! :-)
> We have letter from a Street Preacher in Salt lake City who came out of
> Mormonism and now "swats flies", and preaches in front of the Mormon Temple
> full time-and in those letter His Mormon grandmother refuses to be called a
> Christians as did all Mormons of that era.
DAVEH: Did you see/read that letter, Carroll? Do you actually know it existed and
was not forged or contrived? I have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints since 1956. In all that time, I have never considered us to be
anything other than "Christian". Nor have I heard any other LDS folks proclaim or
suggest otherwise. We have always professed to be Christian, as far back as I can
remember or have read. I think your "grandmother" story is a straw man argument. Let
me
quote a 1907 statement by the First Presidency......
"AN ADDRESS: tHE cHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO THE WORLD.
Greeting: In the hope of correcting the misrepresentations, and of establishing a
more perfect understanding respecting ourselves and our religion, we, the officers and
members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in General Conference
assembled, issue this Declaration.
Such an action seems imperative. Never wee our principles or our purposes more widely
misrepresented, more seriously misunderstood. Our doctrines are distorted, the sacred
ordinances of our religion ridiculed, our Christianity questioned, our history
falsified, our character traduced, and our course of conduct as a people reprobated
and condemned.
In answer to the charges made against us, for ourselves and for those who, under
divine direction, founded our religion and our Church; for our posterity, to whom we
shall transmit the faith, and into whose keeping we shall give the Church of Christ;
and
before mankind, whose opinions we respect, we solemnly declare the truth to be:
Our religion is founded on the revelations of God. The Gospel we proclaim is the
Gospel of Christ, restored to earth in this the dispensation of the fulness of times.
The high claim of the Church is declared in its title----The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. Established by divine direction, its name was prescribed by him
whose Church it is-----Jesus the Christ.
The religion of this people is pure Christianity. Its creed is expressive of the
duties of practical life. Its theology is based on the doctrines of the Redeemer.
If it be true Christianity to accept Jesus Christ in person and in mission as divine;
to revere him as the Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, through whom alone can
mankind attain salvation; to accept his teachings as a guide, to adopt as a
standard and observe as a law the ethical code he promulgated; to comply with the
requirements prescribed by him as essential to membership in his Church, namely,
faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of
hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost,-----if this be Christianity, then are we
Christians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Christian church.
..........."
signed by: Joseph F Smith, John R Winder, Anthon H Lund In behalf of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, March 26, 1907.
.........So Carroll, from my perspective what you are telling me seems a bit (quite a
bit) fishy!!!
> Now I believe you are attempting
> to take the name from us
DAVEH: ROTFLOL..........nonsense, Carroll!
> and call us Protestants.
DAVEH: And what is wrong with that, Carroll? If you walk like a duck, quack like a
duck......you are a Protestant! <VBG>
> But this is a mistake-to
> make that claim and not live up to it-is to put one under more severe
> judgement from God. It is like saying come to me and I will teach you the
> words of Christ who said there is no hell. The problem is Christ said that
> there was a hell. Rev.2:6:
> ..hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
> Nicolaitanes were make believe Christians, DaveH, and Jesus Hated them.
> >
> > > now you claim to be
> > > Christians and you call us prostatants
> >
> > DAVEH: We've always considered ourselves to be Christians. And......I
> use the term "Protestant" when asking specific questions to differentiate
> you (and most other TTers) from being lumped together with the RCC folks.
> Are you ashamed/embarrassed to be
> > a Protestant?
> # Dave are you Church of Christ? Would you like to be called by this
> name?I am of the Wesleyan belief not of the Protestant belief-there is a
> difference? Again I think the Mormons are trying to assimilate the name
> "Christian" as their own -as a attempt to draw young Christians into a
> false non- biblical belief while claiming to hold to that belief-while
> doing acts against that same belief. I doubt your use of this term as a way
> of Identifying sub-groups of Christianity-I don't feel you are being honest
> here Dave.
DAVEH: Excuse me, Carroll........but it appears that you are the one who is
dishonest. I explained that we have always considered ourselves (members of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) to be Christian. Our Church is even
named after
him. Is yours??? The term "Mormon" was given to us by our detractors, and it kinda
stuck. We don't feel ashamed of it as the anti-Mormon folks from the early days had
hoped. We still are Christians, as Jesus Christ is the focal point of our
religion. We believe in his miraculous birth, death and resurrection. If you have
ever thought otherwise, you have either not read my posts carefully, or perhaps you
disbelieve (as you have just suggested when you above questioned my honesty) what I've
said. Let me assure you, Carroll......Mormons are Christians despite what you may
believe or think.
Now, if you wish to associate yourself with Wesley instead of
Protestant......that's OK with me. I was under the impression that John Wesley was a
Protestant himself. I just checked my encyclopedia to find that John Wesley was a
principal Protestant
reformer. If that is incorrect, I'd appreciate somebody setting me straight.
However, at this point Carroll, I'm not sure I can trust you to give me factual
information about whether or not Wesleyans are Protestants. Let me ask you a question,
Carroll......Are you ashamed or embarrassed to be considered a Protestant? And, do
you think being labeled a Protestant detracts from being a Christian?
> > > -You must be a modern Mormon ( ie.
> > > Liberal Mormon) :-)
> >
> > DAVEH: LOL........That's a good one, Carroll.
>
> # I thought you would like that Dave :-)
DAVEH: Yeah.......I think you are the first dude who's ever called me a liberal! LOL
> Dean will do just fine as my name
> -thank you.
DAVEH: Ohhhhhhh........OK, if that is your wish. I assume you are the same guy who
I've had many discussions with in the past....?!?!?!?! I don't recall you ever being
sensitive to your name (or Protestant heritage) before, but if it bothers you, I'll
start calling you 'Dean'.
> > > Do you believe the Bible to be wrong Dave?
> >
> > DAVEH: No.......just your understanding of parts of it.
> #
> But I can back up what I say with the Bible
DAVEH: Where in the Bible does it say it is proper to preach the gospel by using
mockery?
> while you must go to another
> source-that disclaims
> the very Bible
DAVEH: Not at all, Dean. It merely points out your misunderstanding of Bible
principles.
> you claim to hold and believe-and once
> pressed you will put the "other source" over the Bible-
DAVEH: Have I ever quoted latter-day revelation to you, Dean? Excepting when
specifically asked for extra-Biblical quotes, I have always (as best I can remember)
quoted Scripture in reply to your and other TTers questions from the Bible. Each
point you
have made, I have given you a rebuttal from the Bible.
> But still claim
> that source as your own-something is wrong here DaveH.
DAVEH: IHMO.........That "something" is your understanding of the Bible, Dean.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
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http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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