DAVEH: My latest comments are in BLACK.......
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Judy Taylor wrote:
Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home
now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the
rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books
are 'another gospel'
DAVEH: Does that mean you have
read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've
heard from others? jt: I have a copy of the Book of
Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly say I have read it, scripture is
my priority.
DAVEH: OK.....I understand. Your comments
regarding it are then a result of what you've heard others say as opposed
to questions that arise from your personal reading of it.
DAVEH:
I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by
Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18)jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book
spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.
DAVEH: Agreed. The
question is......which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM,
which I believe is Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest it is
"Scripture", I assume
you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was
the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned
man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered
to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned
(respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already
been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is
a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand
it, but that does not in itself make it sealed.
Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual
understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise
and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is
interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there
should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible.
DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the
Bible.
Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age
and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH:
Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy?
jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have
one name in particular and many
DAVEH: If you carefully read Isaiah's words, he
is prophesying a specific instance of the sealed book being presented to
two distinct people to be read. Suggesting that it is symbolic obfuscates
the truth of what Isaiah is telling us.
are too proud to admit they are blind (like the Pharisees). They sat
in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person speaking God's Word
they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the scriptures were sealed
to them even though they were teaching them and believed themselves to
be the experts.
DAVEH: Lots of experts have poured over the Bible,
both in an effort to credit and discredit it. I've never heard any
claiming it or the meaning was sealed to them......have you? As I
see it, you are presuming it to be sealed to them because they do not interpret
it as you do. Similarly, you might think the Bible is sealed to DavidM,
because he does not agree with you on baptism. To me, that is a faulty
way of looking at it.
DAVEH: Your interpretation
of Isaiah's comments are much 'looser' than mine. While you believe
his prophecy was symbolically fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was
literally filled by the BoM. When I think about the book being delivered
to one who is learned, and he says that he cannot read it because it is
sealed.....how does that sound like the Bible? Have you ever heard
account of anybody saying that?jt: No symbolic about it DaveH.
I believe it is being fulfilled today and will be in the future, that is,
literally fulfilled.
DAVEH: If it is literally being fulfilled, then
you should be able to name names of those who Isaiah envisioned.
If it applies to many people, then it becomes symbolic.
And yes, I have heard more than one preacher say that we are presently
in afamine for God's Word.
DAVEH: Imagine that! Was he LDS?
:-)
You may not understand that it can be a 'dead letter' to some and God's'living
Word' to others. When it is a 'dead letter' it is as a sealed book
to that person.
DAVEH: I sure don't see that association.
'Sealed' means one thing, 'dead letter' means another. I just don't
think there is a relationship.
I've read that JS was upset
DAVEH: I don't remember that.
I think the word he used was "confused".
with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment
but he was deceived by the angel
DAVEH: The angel you speak
of is Jesus Christ himself.
and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus'
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree.
He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us.
jt: The angel Moroni with the eyeglasses
is not the Jesus who died on the cross for me DaveH and the Book of Mormon
given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not in harmony
with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone, even an
angel of god comes with a gospel other than what we have already received
- let him be accursed" DAVEH:
I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right......I've heard it
many times on TT. jt:
Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize His voice and
another voice they do not follow"
DAVEH: Reference, please?
jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice'
DAVEH: Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
DAVEH: Oooooops......I just realized that I put that
"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
in so I could come back to it later and complete my reply. I composed
part of this letter this morning before work, and completed it tonight......failing
to fully complete it, Judy. So, I'll try to respond to your comment.
I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep'
are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and
are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much Jesus said and
did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I think it
is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that may
be relevant.
DAVEH:
Once again, I respectfully disagree.
jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know
which voice you are listening to?
DAVEH: Because I feel I'm
seeing it from both sides.
DAVEH: FTR......My Jesus died for
me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.....to
overcome physical death. jt:
Physical death is not the problem, we will all die physically. It's the
second death that should concern you - that is spiritual death. Jesus
said not to fear man because all he can do is kill the body. We should
fear God who can kill both body and soul. DAVEH:
He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the
end.......THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this,
Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point
where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone.
It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to
reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain.
I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I
hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!)
jt: This sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the ascending
toward godhood
DAVEH: That too is Biblical......"I
have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
PS 82:6 .........Some
on this Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine meaning. However,
if you consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those who were trying to
trap him into a relationship with God, Jesus answered them.....
jt: The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said
he made himself equal with God.
DAVEH: EXACTLY! And
Jesus pointed out that their own Scripture allows for that. The reason
they could not trap him in blaspheme is because Jesus was nothing for which
Scripture did not allow. And as the Psalmist suggested......it allows
the same for us.
jt: Judges on this earth who speak for God in matters of litigation
and the belief that men originated in heaven as gods and are in some kind
of an adept system that will get them back there are not the same.
".....Is it not written in your
law, I said, Ye are gods?" ........From
this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both instances has divine properties.
jt: Only in the sense that men represent God on
this earth. God uses it for Moses when he stands before Pharoah Exodus
7:1.
DAVEH:
That wasn't the intent of Jesus' reply to them at all. jt:
Not your Jesus, but it was what the Jesus of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
was talking about.dh:
When you consider the overall message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes
logical sense. We were created in the image of God (plural).
jt: The first man Adam was a created
being and he was created in the "image of God" (singular)
DAVEH: I disagree. He created
them in the image of a PLURAL God......Elohim. Gen 1:26......
"And God said, let US make man in our
image......" jt: The Godhead is 'one God'
DAVEH: I've got a lot to say about this commonly
misunderstood term, Judy. (In my opinion, the 'oneness' of the Godhead
implies a common purpose.) If you want to discuss it under another
thread, I'd be happy to oblige you.
which consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and man is created in
the image of God the Father of spirits in that he is primarily a spirit
being with a body and a soul.
DAVEH: Do you believe Jesus has a physical body
of flesh and bones right now??? And, do you believe we will also
receive a resurrected body of flesh and bones after our death?
However, he is still a created being, he is not God.
DAVEH: Do you believe Jesus was 'created'?
- but he (Adam) fell and
the rest of us who were in his loins fell with him. We now are born in
a fallen state. Genesis 5:3 teaches that Adam lived 130yrs and had a son
in his likeness (rather than Gods) who was Seth..
dh: He is known
to us by his parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to
become like him.....the commandments. He has give us a commandment
to do so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us
that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2)
jt: Dave you need to be born of
the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures. You have them
all mixed up here. God is only Father to those who are in His son;
he does not claim devils and rebels.
DAVEH:
Do you allow that he created them? jt:
At the time he created them they were good.
The commandments
do not conform anyone to His image, the ONLY way to return to that state
is to be conformed to the image of Christ and this can only happen by the
power that comes through His resurrection. The promise in 1 John 3:2 is
to those who are "in Christ" not just everyone out there.
dm: Now, why would you not think
you have the potential to become like God? Let me provide a presumed
answer for you.....because you are a sinner and God is perfect. Is
that correct, Judy?
jt: What makes you think that you
know how I think DaveH?
DAVEH: I don't, but due to your
(presumed) Protestant background I sometimes make assumptions in order
to speed up the process of chatting in a forum such as TT. That is
why I try to ask if I have analyzed your thinking correctly whenever I
do that. Otherwise the discussions would bog down and take forever
to complete.
I believe
the scriptures and they teach that God will cause me to overcome and I
will be conformed to the 'image of Christ'
dh: Then let me answer that our
Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by his
grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning sacrifice.
jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another
one.
DAVEH: My Jesus is the one who
was the only begotten Son of God, who died in our behalf on the cross and
was resurrected. He showed us the way we can return to heaven, and
currently has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. Whatever differences
you perceive we have about Jesus, I'm not sure, but do you agree with my
description so far, Judy? jt: I'm not sure, you appear
to have mastered the language but something isn't right about it.
Yours is not the same Jesus who is coming for His Church which is without
spot, wrinkle, or blemish....the whole temple ritual thing is from
what I've read taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery religious
stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself differently outwardly
but is basically the same as the high places in Israel when they were in
apostasy and also what TPW is into. DAVEH:
You've lost me on much of that, Judy, as I don't recall discussing it with
you. So, I am assuming you are expressing your opinion based on things
you have heard from folks other than me?
DAVEH:
>From the few things you've said so far, I think you have a lot of misunderstandings
about what I believe, Judy. I'm not trying to convert you to
Mormonism. Nor am I quoting Latter-day Scripture to you. What
I've done above is point out the Bible supports one of my beliefs that
you find unacceptable.jt: The Bible doesn't support the belief that you
are gods (plural)
DAVEH: I quoted Jesus who pointed
out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors. If you don't
believe me, I understand. Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't
understand. Do you think I've twisted his words or intent? jt:
Yes I think you have done both because he was not speaking in that context.
The same word that is in John and Psalm 82 is in Exodus 7:1. Do you
believe Moses was also God?
and on your
way back to heaven in a physical body that does not die.
DAVEH: ??? Do you
mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death?
I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most
Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do
you believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive
a resurrected body? jt: No, I do believe those who are
redeemed in the last resurrection will receive a transformed body but they
will always be creatures and never the Creator.
Scripture
is speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth
- so you see this is twisted.
DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation
for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage
in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods"
equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense.
Does that make sense to you, Judy? jt: Yes it does because
Jesus layed aside the glory he had with the father (his divinity) when
he took on a body of flesh and during his earthly ministry he became as
one of us, a man, walking in a 'full measure' of the Holy Spirit.
DAVEH: If you
disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think
my analysis is wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it
all makes logical sense. I don't understand why Protestants find
it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain
above. jt: Probably because what is logical sense to
you makes no spiritual sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit
and understand the scriptures in this light.
DAVEH: I would suggest that many
Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative sense).
Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and beliefs
are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities.
I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in
Protestantism. jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following
the revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc? But I am not
led by men's dogma, I have the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.
The RCC have dogma because their ppl are not permitted to interpret scripture
for themselves. OTOH I believe that Jesus has made me free and am not about
to go back to any yoke of bondage. Not that we all agree on every
detail as you've probably noted from being on TT DAVEH:
Yes.....I've noted some major differences. I think your belief (assuming
I understood you correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected
body of flesh and bones after you leave mortality is one major difference. jt:
No this is not a difference on my part - We've been discussing baptism
and even that is not a major difference really - it turned into different
ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but the differences
are not that great and the Lord will bring it all together before His return.
Judy
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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