While attending Crossroads I felt that the sermons were not necessarily geared to the sensitive seeker, that they were true to the word, and that no facts were withheld from the pulpit. But, the service in general, I think, was designed to appeal to the seeker. However, for a long time I have felt that most churches try to combine two very distinct and different church functions into one service. I would like to see evangelism separated from worship.
I think all Christians are all called to be evangelists (messengers of the gospel). For some this may just be just keeping our Bible on our desk at work, or mentioning Jesus' name at the appropriate moment, while for others it may be street-corner evangelism. I do not feel that function belongs in a worship service.
I believe worship meetings should be geared for believers. It is not that unbelievers should not be able to come the to whorship meetings to experience true worship, but time should be spent in scripture reading, prayer, song, communion, fellowship, and the time should not be spent preaching to the unbelievers. When the message is geared to a large number of unbelievers, followed by a 5-10 minute invitation, I think the worship aspect is compromised.
As for Saddleback, I only attended once, so have not formed much of an opinion about the service. The Purpose Driven Life series appears to be a positive step toward giving Christians Godly direction in their lives. (So many churches "convert 'em and forget 'em"). I have no problems with that program. I have also studied several other planned lessons from Saddleback and, aside form the "stewardship" lesson, felt they have been good. (Explanation: In the stewardship lessons, which is always a delicate topic, they quote from several different versions of the Bible, and they seemed to always pick the translation that favored thier interpretation in the NT, and, I felt, occasionally treated it outside of it's context. I was kind of a maverick, in that following the video lesson I would pull out my NASB or KJV and read the whole verse in context, which sounded quite different than what the video personalityr had said. I may have offended more than one in that class because they all were Saddleback members (or attendees) and because of their dedication to the facilitator on the video, whom they knew personally and adored.)
Perry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship'
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:05:55 -0500
What was your impression then Charles? Do you believe Jesus is involved in this movement? I was a bit dismayed but what I heard and the churches around me are late getting into the game...
Judy
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy,
Corona, California, is 45 M. ESE of LA in Riverside County. The pastor of Crossroas Church in Corona (California) is Barry McMurtrie. He is a biggie in the church growth moverment, and frequently is a speaker and presenter at church growth conferences around the world.
We attended Saddleback once with some of our friends (it is about 30 minutes away by freeway) and completed 40 days of purpose in a small group a year ago facilitated by those same friends.
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call >to Worship' >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:10:38 -0500 > >It most certainly is... >This is part of a new movement which is "Re-Inventing the Church" >It is known as the 'Church Growth Movement' and centered around >Saddleback >Church in California (BTW where is Corona? Is it in Canada or >California?) >Not that it matters as this phenomonen is worldwide and pastors come to >the >CA seminars from all over the world. I recently visited several Churches >in >our area and they were ALL getting involved in this program. IMO it is >part >of the 'Great Falling Away' that is prophesied for the end times. Anyone >interested in learning more about the movement and the philosophy behind >it can find it at the following website: > >http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm > > >Judy > > >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Very interesting, G. > > A local church we used to attend is going quite secular in appearance > >and presentation...to the point that they spent 14 million building an >area >on their property that resembles a mini-mall, with stores, cafes, >restaurants.The church website is http://www.crossroadschurch.com. It has >a >few links to articles in the local paper about the un-christian nature of > >the new development. One of the articles starts out like this... > >--------------------------------- > >Circle of Light > >Newer Inland churches don't look like houses of worship: Some have or >plan >3,500-seat auditoriums, cafes, water parks, stores > >12:14 AM PDT on Monday, September 1, 2003 > >By MELANIE C. JOHNSON / The Press-Enterprise > > >CORONA - Virtually nothing about Crossroads Christian Church's new digs >say >house of worship. > >And that is what planners of the $14 million Circle of Light project said > >they intended, in part. > >The faux cobblestone walkways, geometrically shaped multicolored >architecture, and bubbling mini-waterfall fountain -- which officially >opened Sunday -- make it look like some of the new-fangled >pedestrian-friendly shopping centers springing up in Orange and Los >Angeles >counties. > >--------------------------------------- > > I feel that when the church begins to try to emulate the world, it >ceases >to be a church...this is why my wife and I left this church. When they >showed a virtual reality video during the service of what the development > >would look like, and above the entrance were large letters that said >"Plaza >del Sol", I knew which way they were headed and we decided not to be a >part >of it. > > They also sponsor this website... http://www.xxxchurch.com ...it is >an >outreach to men (and women, I guess) that are addicted to pornography. > >What do you (and other TT'rs) think about this? Are they on the right >track >to bringing glory to God and winning sould for the Kingdom? > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to > >Worship' > >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 05:58:01 -0700 > > > ><< > >January 31, 2004 > >By JOHN LELAND > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/31/national/31EVAN.html?ex=1076553259&ei= >1 > >&en=23540f276c314a2d > > > >When Doug Reese put up his Web site, he felt he was > >answering a call. A college wrestling coach with a long > >involvement in Christian youth ministries, he wanted to > >spread a Christian message to people who were not getting > >it. > > > >Instead of working through his Methodist church, he created > >a site with no overtly religious images or affiliation, and > >articles about weight lifting, nutrition and profiles of > >athletes. Only after users click a few links do they start > >to see biblical passages or the religious testimonials of > >the athletes. > > > >"I wanted it to look like a sports magazine," said Mr. > >Reese, who coaches at the University of Minnesota at Morris > >and hopes to turn his three-year-old site into a full-time > >ministry. "It's a little covert. I know that religion or > >Christianity is a turn-off with a great part of the > >population. I didn't want to shove it in people's faces." > > > >Mr. Reese and his Web site, www.tothenextlevel.org, embody > >an increasingly popular strategy for evangelism in the > >Internet age. In the segmented realms of the Web, said Tony > >Whitaker, editor of a guide for online evangelists, sites > >that use overtly Christian material will reach only people > >who are already Christians, while everyone else can click > >by. Unlike Christian radio or television, the new medium > >calls not for powerful religious symbolism or rhetoric but > >for the absence of them, he said. > > > >"You're not trying to trick people," Mr. Whitaker said. > >"You can't appear to be something you're not. But > >Christians should legitimately appear to be taking a > >starting point on a subject that doesn't appear to be > >religious." > > > >A report released in December by the Pew Internet and > >American Life Project estimated that by December 2002, 35 > >million Americans had searched for religious or spiritual > >information online, compared with 36 million who had > >downloaded music files. Until recently, if someone typed > >"god" into a search engine, it retrieved as many sites as > >typing in "sex," said Quentin J. Schultze, a professor of > >communications at Calvin College who has written about > >religion and the Web. "So this has been a deeply > >evangelistic medium. The influence of religious evangelists > >has been greatly unreported." > > > >Instead of Scripture, the sites come on with information > >about beauty, diet, fitness, sex and celebrities. Some also > >have links for donations or offer books or other products > >for sale. But the sites are not veiled pitches for money, > >and the approach has elicited little controversy. > > > >Many sites have no church ties and they represent just a > >fraction of the religious traffic online. "The most > >creative ones are started by individuals" rather than > >churches, said Robby Richardson, director of international > >Internet ministries for Gospel Communications > >International, a nonprofit umbrella group of 300 ministries > >based in Muskegon, Mich., whose www.gospelcom.net reaches > >about two million visitors a month, according to > >Nielsen//NetRatings. "We're trying to tell church sites, > >`Don't forget about evangelism.' " > > > >Some sites direct visitors to churches or study groups; > >others hope readers will convert on the spot, declaring > >themselves by clicking a button or a link. Bruce > >Biesenthal, editor of www.thegoal.com, a sports-oriented > >site in Seattle, said about 300 people in the last two > >years had clicked a button to say they were making a > >"decision for Christ" after reading athletes' testimonials > >on the site. The articles discuss religious themes only > >after delivering the sports news, he said. > > > >"The site is for people coming because they want to learn > >about the athlete or the sport," he said. "It's subversive. > >We want to use the celebrity of the athletes as a > >platform." > > > >Even as President Bush, in an apparent nod to conservative > >Christians in his State of the Union address, urged > >Americans to "work together to counter the negative > >influence of the culture," many online evangelists are > >using the R-rated culture to attract visitors. > > > >Some sites discuss gangsta rap or movies like "American > >Pie" in relatively neutral language. For example, an > >article on www.damaris.org, a nondenominational Christian > >ministry based in England, advises, "Eminem and his rap > >entourage could be described as radical preachers, speaking > >frankly about the broken communities they come from." > > > >David Bruce, an evangelical Christian who runs a movie > >review site called www.hollywoodjesus.com, said he liked > >covering racy films, as long as they were popular, because > >they had the attention of "pre-Christians." Parts of his > >site refer people to religious groups, and Mr. Bruce, a > >former pastor, said he has continuing telephone or e-mail > >conversations with 100 users at any time. > > > >Mr. Bruce distinguished himself from fundamentalists who > >protest or boycott the Harry Potter books and movies as > >occultist. > > > >"I would say I'm part of a new thinking within > >evangelicals," he said, adding that he receives angry > >e-mail messages for promoting sexual or violent movies. "I > >get so tired of Christians that bash Hollywood." > > > >"It isn't content that interests me," he said, continuing > >that even exploitation movies provide "common ground" for > >biblical discussion. > > > >"I was so disappointed `Showgirls' wasn't a hit because I > >would have loved to discuss it," Mr. Bruce said. > > > >Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of > >Evangelicals, which represents 43,000 congregations, said > >that the Internet lent itself to all kinds of approaches, > >both direct and indirect, because different users were > >ready for different levels of information. A site that did > >not declare its intentions was the best way to reach some, > >just as an evangelist in a public square might begin by > >talking about secular concerns. "You have a moral > >obligation not to be deceitful," he said. "But you don't > >have a moral obligation to tell everything you know > >upfront." > > > >Yet Mr. Haggard worried that on the Internet, anyone could > >come on as a religious authority - "even a crazy person." > >He added that because there was so much pornography on the > >Internet, online evangelism might prove a mixed benefit. > >"We have more people corrupted on the Internet than we have > >arrive at the church by the Net," he said. > > > >In Vancouver, British Columbia, Karen Schenk works both > >direct and indirect approaches to evangelism. She is the > >director of Web site strategies for TruthMedia, an > >organization of 20 sites affiliated with Campus Crusade for > >Christ, an evangelical group. Two sites she oversees are > >www.womentodayonline.com and www.christianwomentoday.com. > > > >The latter assumes visitors are already involved in > >churches, she said, and offers articles like "Dive Deeper > >Into God" and "True Spiritual Change." The former is for > >women who might not be Christians, and features articles > >like "I Am Jealous of His Very Attractive Ex-Wife." > > > >It is the secular-looking site that is evangelistic, Mrs. > >Schenk said. "We're just being sensitive to where people > >are at and inviting them in. We don't have spinning crosses > >on Women Today." > > > >To illustrate how beauty tips might be used to spread the > >gospel, Mrs. Schenk noted that the most popular article on > >Women Today Online has been an advice column about frizzy > >hair. Before reading advertisements for L'Oreal, readers > >see a link that reads, "Are you happy with your body?" If > >they click on that, they get the life story of a model who > >battled bulimia but then found success after becoming a > >born-again Christian. "You can receive Christ right now by > >faith through prayer," she writes. > > > >Mrs. Schenk said that about 70 percent of the site's > >traffic was in the secular areas, but that visitors wanting > >more could receive prayers, Bible passages or Christian > >mentoring. > > > >The Web site www.mops.org, whose initials stand for Mothers > >of Preschoolers, offers mothers advice and chat rooms for > >topics like playdates, money, sexuality and medical needs, > >and organizes more than 3,000 groups that meet in churches > >around the country and abroad. The group has 115,000 > >members, said Karen Parks, the director of ministry > >networks. Articles are mostly secular, but the site also > >has areas for religious testimonials and outreach. > > > >The site avoids discussion of political topics or abortion. > >"We never hide that we're a Christian organization, but we > >don't want to build any walls or barriers," Ms. Parks said. > >"We consider a success anything that leads a mom one step > >closer to Jesus, whatever that step is. Hopefully she goes > >all the way to meet Jesus, but that might be through > >another group, and that's fine." > > > >The indirect, or bridge strategy in online evangelizing > >continues a broader trend among Christian evangelicals, > >said Randall Balmer, chairman of the religion department at > >Barnard College and author of "The Encyclopedia of > >Evangelicalism." In 1975, the Willow Creek Community Church > >in South Barrington, Ill., after surveying local residents > >to see why many did not go to church, dispensed with all > >Christian iconography, crosses or stained glass windows to > >appeal to people who were turned off by these. In the > >1990's, many evangelical churches dropped the denomination > >from their names, switching to names like Oak Chapel. > > > >Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and > >American Public Life at Boston College, questioned the > >long-term value of online religious conversions, no matter > >how many hits the sites got. He pointed to the Internet > >outreach in Howard Dean's presidential campaign, which > >generated furious activity online but so far has not > >translated into first-place finishes in the primaries. "The > >Dean camp suggests that meeting through the Internet didn't > >work," Mr. Wolfe said. "I wonder if a similar Christian > >strategy is going to work either." > > > >For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company>> > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >What are the 5 hot job markets for 2004? Click here to find out. >http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/WPI_WhereWillWeFind J >obsIn2004.htm?siteid=CBMSN3006&sc_extcmp=JS_wi08_dec03_hotmail1 > >---------- >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. >---------- >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
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