Re: [TruthTalk] Epistemological Humility

[Chris Barr]

\o/ !HALALUYah! \o/ Greetings Jonathan in the Matchless Name of YahShua !!   WAS Salvation by grace ONLY through faith (WORKS has nothing to do with it)   NOW Salvation by grace through faith with works.  Works are meaningless without grace and faith, though saving grace and faith include works.   WAS "Accept Jesus into my heart" christian   NOW Repented of my sin, baptized in The Name of My Saviour, filled with His Spirit in that old time, tongue-talkin' way of the gospels AND the time of Torah in the wilderness journeying of the children of Israel)   WAS trinity (polytheist)   NOW Oneness (monotheist)   WAS 'sun'day faithful (never worked that day, either)   NOW 7th day Sabbath keeper   WAS Gifts cessationist (with 1st century death of apostles)   NOW Gifts never ceased and continue today   WAS Baptized with the post-nicene 'Father, Son and Holy Ghost' words spoken over me   NOW Baptized with the only Name, given among men, whereby we MUST be saved spoken over me just like the 1st century believers   WAS Pre-trib rapture   NOW Look forward to joining My Saviour in the air on His way down to right this mess -- post trib   WAS Torah done away with by the New Covenant   NOW Torah continued along with New Covenant (you could call it "outward showing of an inward work" to use the terminology with which I was raised) [ II Peter 3:18 ]   Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH,   Chris Barr a servant of YHVH ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03/29/2004 6:30 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Epistemological Humility Good day all,   Greetings to you all.  I have been a lurker (one who follows a list but never posts, not to be confused with a troll: one who posts only to stir up trouble) on this list for a while now and am finally taking the plunge.  I hope to get to know some of you even better and that we may continue to edify one another.   Years ago when I was in university an acquaintance of mine offered up an idea that I was originally not in favour of: epistemological humility.  Epistemology is the study of how we know what we know.  Adding humility to it is to illustrate that all of our beliefs should be approached in a humble way.  We may fully believe something only to later on in life as the Spirit of God moved in our hearts repudiate those beliefs and take up others in their place.  Another definition would be: Recognition of the limits of your own understanding and with humility be willing and eager to learn from others.  (See the portion marked by *** below for a few more disclaimers on my using the term �epistemological humility.  This is a bit philosophical so feel free to skip it!).  Being a fundamentalist at the time I thought this was a rather wishy-washy way of approaching truth.  I now hold that it is possible to believe in truth while at the same time holding onto a humble way of knowing.  When it comes to doctrines this can get tricky.  I believe that most people once set in their religious beliefs rarely change them, especially when it comes to Christian doctrine.  To see if my assumption is true my challenge to everyone is as follows:   Tell us one doctrine, preferably a major one instead of a minor one, (for example whether drama should be allowed in the church would be considered minor; whether Jesus was actually God would be considered major) that you have changed your mind on.  One that you went from fully believing one way to fully believing another.  This doesn�t mean that you fleshed out the doctrine and now understand it more fully but rather you jumped to another viewpoint completely.  If you have always been right you may safely ignore this thread.  Of course we should all remember that even the great apostles were wrong on at least one occasion.   The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the doctrines we may have changed our beliefs on but to see if we are actually open to being �transformed by the renewing of our minds.�  If you want to discuss the doctrines that are brought up please do so under a separate thread.  In my time spent lurking on Truthtalk I rarely see openness for consideration of someone else�s opinion.  This purpose of this thread is to be edifying.  Has anyone on Truthtalk actually changed sides?  What I have seen is that those who already agree continue to agree.  I think it would be nice to know that we all have grown since we first accepted Christ�s offer of adoption.  I suspect that we may view some people on Truthtalk as always thinking they are right and unable to admit they may possibly have been wrong, or continue to be wrong.  Let�s change that assumption.   To start off I shall bring up one of my own experiences with epistemological humility.  I used to believe that God was very angry with the world (including me).  I believed that He couldn�t stand to look at me because I am so full of sin.  I believed that He had to kill his own Son just so He could finally stand to look upon me without wanting to pour out His wrath upon me.  Basically I believed that �sin� was bigger than God: something that was stronger than He was since it was able to thwart Him.  I now completely reject this position.  I now believe that God wants nothing more than to accomplish his stated goal (Ephesians 1): Adoption.  By sending His Son to take up our humanity and then to bring that humanity (cleansed and holy) back into the Godhead does take care of my sin but the whole purpose is love, not wrath.  Resolving my sin is a by-product of what Christ came to do.  In other words it was very important that Christ dealt with my sin, but not the reason He came, died, rose again, and ascended to His Father.  In this case the major doctrine that I was wrong about was the doctrine of God (they don�t get much bigger!).  Please share a moment of epistemological humility from your life.     *** I believe that Kant was the first one to come up with �epistemological humility� but he used it in a different way.  Kant would say that we can know nothing at all (which lead to puns like �we Kant know anything� etc.).  I believe that God is the ultimate revelator, i.e. one who gives revelation (Himself).  If God reveals Himself (through scripture, His Son, His Spirit etc) than I believe that He can truly be known.  I do hold that if my �thought claims� on God become absolutes they are in danger of possessing God which limits His greatness/freedom and causes me to become condescending to others.  ***   Peace and Joy,   Jonathan