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Blaine: Cement, barley, Nahom,
antithetical parallelism --those four are just the
beginning, and together make up a strong case. I jave yet
to bring out the big guns. There is more--far more. Do you want me to
continue with more? So far, the BoM is batting 100--no misses, all
hits. You have to look at the overall picture. The nature of the BoM
being an ABRIDGEMENT of a much larger record, makes comparing it to the Bible
difficult AND unfair. The writers in the BoM often refer to
the limitations placed on them as they wrote--inscribed--in metal, which was a
slow and tedious process. They were forced to limit their writings
to that which was of a spiritual nature. History per se took a secondary
niche relatively speaking.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 7:11
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
Finding cement being used in a REAL civilization, is as much a proof
as finding a horse in some other civilization.
Find ONE city, one coin, one person or event "NAMED" in the
BoM. Blaine Borrowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many
coins in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins
from the Bible era.
Blaine: I
don't know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of
Mormon mentions cement being used extensively:
Helaman 3:7-11
"The people who went forth became exceedingly
expert in the working of cement."
". . .they did build houses of cement."
". . . all manner of their buildings,"
and many of their cities "both of wood and cement."
The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day
Mexico City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time
indicated in the BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day
building code requirements. Cement as a building material is also
found in the Valley of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern
Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other
Indian buildings, only the Maya seem to have used it. It was
basically a lime cement, according to the writers of my source article,
"Concrete Evidence for the book of Mormon," by
Matthew G. Wells, and John C.
Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of
Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C.
Welch.
Thousands of Biblical sites have
been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do.
Blaine You keep saying one site
will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian
Peninsula? That has yet to be explained away. (:>)
The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum
would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM.
Blaine: The Book of Mormon also tells
of the downfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization
and legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain
equivalents were a part. I would be very surprised if much
survived at all. The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs
after the visitation of Jesus Christ to these people.
Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you
know the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's?
Blaine: That seems
to be a way-out possibility to me. The Hohokam Indians raised many
crops besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated
in info below: "Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds
would be pretty difficult, and time consuming. Those Mormon settlers
would have to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever
heard of--I doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject.
They were more likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile
environment. (:>)
"The Hohokam utilised
extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of
their farmland; more than three hundred miles of major
canals, and nearly three times that number of
smaller canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River
valley alone (Houk 1992: 8). As well as their
irrigated crops of maize, lima and tepary beans, squash, tobacco, cotton,
barley and amaranth, the Hohokam
gathered saguaro cactus fruit, prickly pear pads, cholla cactus buds,
plantain, mesquite beans and agave from the wild desert. Maize kernels recovered from Hohokam dwelling sites have
been dated to 300 B.C., or the time of the earliest
Hohokam settlements." More on this subject can be found
at:
Blaine: I have a book titled
Reexploring the book of Mormon, edited by John Welch. It has
FARMS research in it.
See you at conference!
Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Blaine,
I
offered the challenge a week or so ago:
"If you cannot find even
one proven fact in the BoM that is not from the
Bible, then my
assertion about it's fictional nature stands."
That is
interesting about the barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof.
There is no linkage between the barley the BoM other than in name
only.
Perry
>From: "Blaine Borrowman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines
Lost sheep of america
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40
-0700
>
>Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started
deleting posts without
>reading them--it was the only way I could
catch up and get current. (:>)
>I even deleted DavidM's posts,
which I am usually careful to read, so don't
&! amp;! gt;take it
personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I
>was gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks
for
>letting me know the challenge is there--who put it
there?
>
>Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or
you dismissed it as being
>unimportant--I have already posted on
the discovery of barley in the
>Americas before Columbus' time.
The December 1983 issue of the Science 83
>reported the discovery
in Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists.
>Prior to its
discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only,
>and
was widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a
fake.
>
>It is of fundamental importance, since barley has
long been associated with
>the law of Moses as a wave offering
during the Passover, which is held
>during Abib, the first month
mentioned in the Bible, which means "the
>greening," referring !
to the g! reening of the barley crop in the early
>Spring. This
crop was planted in the fall as a dry crop. It depended on
>Spring moisture to bring it up early, and was the first of the
grain crops
>to show maturity. When it was used as a wave
offering, it signified Jesus
>having barely attained maturity
(age 33) when he was crucified. The same
>with the Pascal lamb,
which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST YEAR.
>
>For
Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. without barley
>would have seriously compromised BoM credibility. The BoM
references to
>barley are found in:
>
>Mosiah
7:22
>"and one half of our corn, and our BARLEY, and even all our
grain of every
>kind."
>
>Mosiah, 9:9
>"And we
began to till the ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of
>corn, and of wheat, and of BARLEY, . . .
>
>Alma
11:7
>"A senum of silver was equal to a! senine ! of gold, and
either for a measure
>of BARLEY, and also for a measure for every
kind of grain."
>
>Alma 11:15
>"A shiblon is half of a
senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of
>BARLEY."
>
>
>
>----- Original Message
-----
>From: "Charles Perry Locke"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43
PM
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost sheep of
america
>
>
> > Blaine,
> >
> >
Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to
>present
> > one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM
that did not come from the
>Bible.
> > Maybe you have
not gotten to it yet in your catching up on TT posts.
>
>
> > Perry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > >From: "Blaine Borrowman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-! To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23
>Mar
> >
>2004 18:19:54 -0700
> > >
> > >Blaine: The
following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin,
>thank
> > >you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and
plausible. I find it far more
> > >believable than the
tortuous explanation Kevin gives trying to convince
>us
>
> >Jesus was referring to the GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I
HAVE
>WHICH
> > >ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again
Jesus' response when he was accosted
>by
> > >the
Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her daughter. He said, "I
>am
> > >not sent but to the lost sheep of the House
of Israel." Yet He later
> > >revealed to Peter that the
gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by
>the
> >
>Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the instrument
of
> > >conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever heard his
voice, no Gentile
>was
> > >ever a witness to his
ministry on earth, except by default as they may
>have
>
> >been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This
was
>done
> > >to fulfill the promises made to
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and later to
> > >Moses and other
Israelite prophets.
> > >
> >
>http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any
>time
> > >hath the Father given me commandment that
I should tell it unto your
> > >brethren at Jerusalem.
Neither at any time hath the Father given me
> >
>commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes
of
>the
> > >house of Israel, whom the Father hath
led away out of ! ! the land. This
>much
> > >did the
Father command me, that I should tell unto them: That other
>sheep I
> > >have which are not of this fold; them
also I must bring, and they shall
> > >hear my voice; and
there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now,
> >
>because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my
word;
> > >therefore I was commanded to say no more of the
Father concerning this
> > >thing unto them. But, verily, I
say unto you that the Father hath
>commanded
> > >me,
and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them
>because
> > >of their iniquity; therefore it is
because of their iniquity that they
>know
> > >not of
you. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath
>the
> > >Father separated from them; and it is
because of their iniquity that
>they
> &g! t; >!
;know not of them. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom
I
> > >said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold;
them also I must
> > >bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and
>one
> > >shepherd.
And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the
>
> >Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be
converted
> > >through their preaching. And they understood
me not that I said they
>shall
> > >hear my voice;
and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not
>at
> > >any time hear my voice-that I should not
manifest myself unto them save
>it
> > >were by the
Holy Ghost. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and
>seen
> > >me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are
numbered among those whom the
>Father
> > >hath given
me.
> > >
&g! t; > >
> > >
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Do you
Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File
on time.
> >
> >
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>
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>
>
> > ----------
> > "Let your speech be always
with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
>know how you ought
to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not
want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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>friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
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>
>
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your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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