Greek "shmeek"! Do you have a spouse, friend, mirror? Just ask & look? Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: April 05, 2004 15:13 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Grace and Holiness
> David Miller wrote: > >> 1. I desire from you an acknowledgment that there > >> is no Greek scholar, not Mounce or anyone else, who > >> has translated 1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:23 > >> as you have. Can you agree with me on this point? > > John S. wrote: > > Sure. While you are at it, take my clothes and shoes > > as well. Seriously, do you mean to exclude the > > statement of those greek principles that present > > to us the idea of continual and continuing action > > in association with present indicative active? > > Are you wanting me to concede that? > > No, we already agreed on those points. What I want you to acknowledge > is that you are unaware of any Greek scholar who translates the passages > in question as you have. > > David Miller wrote: > >> 2. If there is no Greek scholar who translates > >> the context as you have and provides the translation > >> that you have, do you have any pause whatsoever such > >> that you would consider some arguments from me about > >> why you should relinquish your hold on the idea that > >> in Christ, we continue to be sinners by our very > >> nature, based upon these particular passages? > > John S. wrote: > > I am having trouble here. I am not of the belief that > > scholarship in this case, "translates" context. They > > translate words. Context determines nuance, does it not? > > It is nuance that BillT committed to in the recent post > > regarding the faith(fulness) of Christ. Isn't our problem > > a difference of opinion regarding defined nuance? > > Not exactly. A person learned in Greek is much better able to judge the > context of a Greek passage. This is because he understands better the > nuances of word order, the use of articles, and numerous other clues > that help him better judge what the write might be trying to > communicate. Sometimes, however, Greek scholars let their theological > background get in the way, and they introduce that when they expound > upon texts. We sometimes can spot this when we compare different > translations. When we have virtually all Greek scholars agreeing upon a > translation, even when they have different theological backgrounds and > different Greek manuscripts from which they work, and then we have > someone else such as yourself arguing that the Greek text actually means > something else, something other than the way all these Greek scholars > have translated the text, then we need something more than what you have > offered us to accept the idea that the Greek gives us better insight > into understanding these passages. > > You seem to be arguing now that it is all a matter of opinion and that > one opinion is as good as another. I see it differently. I hear you > claiming that the Greek reveals a continuing action in these passages, > and yet I cannot find a Greek scholar or translation committee that > seems to agree with you. > > John S. wrote: > > If we agree on the verb tense (and I think we do) > > in the two passages in question, then there is much > > to talk about. Namely, all that information that > > goes into making a sound exegetical decision. > > LOL. John, how can you possibly say this? Verb tense is not the sole > information for deciding the meaning of a passage. There are lots of > other factors, including consideration of the context and the author's > known writing style. > > Let me give you a modern example by telling you about my going into a > local grocery store. > > I go into the store, and I see this girl behind the counter who is very > scared. I say, "are you ok"? She tells me that she is afraid of being > robbed. So I begin to share Christ with her and I lead her in prayer. > After the prayer, she experiences the joy of the Lord and thanks me for > sharing the Lord with her. > > Now I have written this entire last paragraph in present tense. Does > this mean that I am talking about something happening to me right now? > No. I am talking about an event in the past, but I speak about it in > present tense. Now if we took your approach of simply looking at tense, > we would come to a faulty conclusion. > > Consider also that I could have easily written that entire paragraph in > the past tense. It would have communicated the same thing, but the > engagement with the reader would have been shifted somewhat. Still, the > tense is not the all deciding factor here. The actual thing being > communicated is what is important. Our words only approximate that real > thing that we attempt to communicate. > > John S. wrote: > > Here is the point of difference between the two of us > > as I see it: > > You believe that the present tense in these passages > > does not mean that sin is a continuing issue. > > I am saying that that is exactly the case. > > I do admit that scholarship actually says that present > > indicative active does not necessarily mean continuous > > action -- thus the possiblity of an honest debate. > > How am I doing? > > Well, the problem is that you seem to think that one opinion is as good > as another. You were the one who made the assertion about the Greek > bringing out a different meaning here. I am challenging you on whether > that is true. You have come half way over, acknowledging that the text > MIGHT NOT MEAN what you claimed it did. That is a start. Nevertheless, > it seems to me that you do not give much credence to my observation that > there do not seem to be any Greek scholars translating these two > passages the way that you have. > > I can work with the fact that you recognize that the Greek does not > necessarily communicate in the way that you have shared, but for the > sake of being thorough, and at the same time make one last stab at you > reconsidering your understanding of the Greek, consider the following > translations that I have consulted concerning the translation of Romans > 3:23: > > (ALT) For all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, > (ASV) for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; > (BBE) For all have done wrong and are far from the glory of God; > (CEV) All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. > (Darby) for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; > (DRB) For all have sinned and do need the glory of God. > (EMTV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, > (GNB) everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. > (GW) Because all people have sinned, they have fallen short of God's > glory. > (HNV) for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; > (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; > (LITV) for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, > (MKJV) for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, > (NASB) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, > (NIV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, > (WEB) for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; > (Webster) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; > (WNT) for all alike have sinned, and all consciously come short of the > glory of God, > (YLT) for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God-- > > My point is that if the Greek scholars do not translate the text as you > have, do you really have a solid foundation for telling others that the > Greek actually means what you have told us that it means? This fact > alone does not mean that you are wrong, but if you are boiling your > argument down to a matter of opinion rather than actual textual or > contextual arguments, then I think this observation does tip the scales > of judgment away from your perspective. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
