[TruthTalk] The Being and Nature of the Unborn Child

[Judy Taylor]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Judy, (and Izzy – please see my comments below) I certainly do not mind pointing you to someone who put into words a representation of my thoughts better than I could have written them myself. When I read Bill's post I was happy that I could point you to an explanation that would have been more understandable than anything I would have written. Putting my thoughts into written words is not my gift.  That is something I very much need to work at and in that hopefully build my confidence.    jt: Well Sherrie since you have a problem in this area yourself then hopefully you will be kind enough to be merciful to me also.   (I will admit, Judy, that you haven’t helped me in this area. You can be quite harsh and intimidating.)  It has also been the reason I’ve been hesitant to send in posts to TT.    jt: I can't imagine why you would come to such a conclusion Sherrie, this is not my heart and so I have to wonder what kind of an influence you are or have been under. We know so little about you.  Of course if you are an active or latent Calvinist or unsure about what you personally believe then I can understand the battle... but I am not your problem. Do I detect some accusation in what you write?  Have you seen me flame anyone here so far?   My comfort zone was/is in using TT as a learning tool: reading all the awesome, thought provoking information on here that all who post on TT have contributed; reading all the different opinions that without this site I would not have access to. What a great opportunity this forum is!  I’ve looked at two other Christian sites where people can write in and post their ideas and this site stands out to me. What saddens me is that for the last two months while reading the posts on TT the incredible information on here is many times lost to detrimental comments because people disagree with each others opinions.  What I’d like to point out is that TT travels further han just to those who post. It was through the archives that I was first made aware of this forum. I think Bill has said that he too found TT through the archives.   jt: Thank you for sharing Sherrie, to me then it is even more important to have both sides of the issue posted. If I were you I wouldn't swallow anything from this site without checking it out yourself in God's Word. I have many times wanted to share this site with my brother, who likes Jesus but perceives hate coming from the Church and many Christians, to him a contradiction. I've wanted to share it with a friend in Germany, whose only exposure to Christ is through the state run Church.  He too has not placed his faith in Jesus Christ. Yet he is so considerate and so hungry for something to begin to make sense of his life. I've wanted to share TT with others as well who have questions about God. BUT I know that if I do they will walk away from this great learning tool for the simple reason that the behavior that is often demonstrated here on TT is no different than what they see in the world.   jt: Probably because there is so much of the world still in those of us who profess belief in Christ. I know for a fact that neither my brother, nor my friend would talk to people as I have seen happen on TT, so how can I help draw them closer to the truth when we ourselves don’t behave as we are called to?  What they would see is that what we say we believe is not how we act.  Again, we don’t look any different than what they see in the world.   jt: I have found people in the world are kinder many times than those who profess to follow Christ. I would suggest that you talk to these people since God has given you the burden; if they are meant to join the list, he can give them grace for this also.   This hurts me because TT has so much to offer them. But what is there to inspire them if we demonstrate by our behavior that we are contradictions to the grace we know?  Do we look like to them – to use Bill’s words – that we love our Lord?   jt: How do you think a person that "loves our Lord" looks Sherrie?   Getting back to your post Judy, Bill writes: "Our words have substance only in that they find their ontological status in Christ Jesus. This is why evil has no ontological status: it has no grounding in Jesus Christ." I fail to see how Bill’s words are different from or diminish the verse you have quoted below. Sherrie   jt: If you don't see it Sherrie, then what can I say?  Under the Old Covenant Israel needed priests to explain the law to them but we have a New Covenant with better promises and the Spirit of Promise has been sent not only to comfort. He also leads us into all truth. The Words of Jesus minister to us because they are spirit and we are spirit beings. If you want to get off into intellectualism.  Oh well!  It's your choice - being religious is the other option.   So Sherrie you don't mind Bill putting words in your mouth?  It is my understanding that the words of Jesus are different from the words of Bill and Lance.  Jesus said "It is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are life" (John 6:63) - This being the case I believe Jesus words do have substance in and of themselves and that this theological jargon is irrelevant so far as spirit and life are concerned.  judyt     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Exactly, Bill.  That is exactly how I understood it. Sherrie Bill writes: Sherrie, as it pertains to Judy's comments about not understanding Lance, you could say something like this: I wouldn't want to put words in Lance's mouth, but this is kind of what I hear him saying: if words, being what they are, were arrows, they could not "strike" us because they have no substance in and of themselves. The ontological status of words is not in the words themselves but in that to which they refer.   From: Judy Taylor Hi Sherrie, I understand Satan's fall to be pride and rebellion; a series of "I will's" and yes he was taken with himself.. but I had no problem with Bill's description below.  However, I still don't know what Lance was talking about. What is the significance of "words becoming arrows" and where does that come from? In the parable of the sower Jesus uses seed.   Am I missing some great revelation that you are privy to here?    Shalom  judyt     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] David wrote these words to Judy: "Bill and Lance sometimes are as if they are ‘speaking in tongues’ around you because you do not understand their words.  Therefore, they should try and explain their words in a way that you can understand it."   Please help me if I've missed something, but I do not see the problem as a lack of effort on the part of Bill and Lance to explain their terminology; they are both quite willing and adept to do this; instead it is a lack of openness on the receiving end to recognize it as having any value. I see it as being not about "speaking in tongues," but about having ears to hear.   I’ve copied and pasted a couple of examples from Bill- and Lance’s posts below:   "To say that evil has no ontological status is to say that it has no status in and of itself. That is to say that evil is a perversion of that which is already good and does have ontological status in Christ. This is true at whatever level, even if we go all the way back to the beginning of evil. Lucifer's sin was a perversion of his beauty: He saw that he was beautiful (good) and became proud and violent (evil). Without the good (beauty) there was no occasion for evil (‘iniquity was found within you’ -- Eze 28.15)." These were Bill's words to Judy.   Lance wrote to Judy, "If  'ontology' were to be applied to the contingent world then words themselves might have a kind of ontological status. However, it's safe to say that if words were arrows few of us are in much danger of being 'struck.'" Sherrie     ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Being and Nature of the Unborn Child     > Judy wrote: > > Bill at what point does discussion become ridiculous? > > It goes without saying that our 21 month old grandson > > does not read nor does he speak full sentences; however, > > he is a spirit being and so responds emotionally to love > > and has demonstrated anger on occasion.. What does this > > have to do with the subject? > > I think the point is that your grandson must learn language and grow in > knowledge in order to understand and appreciate the Scriptures.  If > there are words that he does not know, the passage cannot have relevance > and meaning to him unless he learns the words, even though they come > directly from the Bible.  The problem is not with the Bible or the > message, but with your grandson's limited understanding. > > In the same way, your lack of understanding of some of the words that > Lance and Bill use is not because they are "unbiblical," nor is it > because they cannot be a source to bless someone.  Rather, it is your > lack of knowledge and understanding.  You are kind of like your 21 month > old grandson trying to read the Bible. :-) > > However, there is a side of this that deserves consideration.  Bill and > Lance sometimes are as if they are "speaking in tongues" around you > because you do not understand their words.  Therefore, they should try > and explain their words in a way that you can understand it.  They > should "interpret" what they say that you do not understand.  At the > same time, you should not think that their message has no ability to > bless you because they are rooted in some kind of philosophy that uses > words you have not found in your Bible.  Let those who have knowledge > among us condescend to those without knowledge and help them understand, > but also let those who lack knowledge not despise those who have > obtained it. > > Am I making any sense to you, or did I only muddy the waters more? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. >       --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/     ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.