An attempt to change the subject. Does baptism "save?" Do works
"save?" I gots the answer. Or do I?
(a)
No
(b)
No
(c)
I'm sure you must or you're just a seeker here
(d)
Yes -- I think you do
A few comments on your paper are below. Overall, I enjoyed the
read.
In Old Covenant times, David viewed sacrifice as something that forgave sin, after all, that was the stated purpose for the sacrifice of bulls and goats.
In Old Covenant times, David viewed sacrifice as something that forgave sin, after all, that was the stated purpose for the sacrifice of bulls and goats.
The Rabbis of old knew that only God forgave sin,
explaining their aversion to Yeshua's words, "Your sins are forgiven you..
stand and walk." (These particular teachers must not have believed in a
divine messiah... please note SOME DID believe in a divine Messiah.) The Torah
Teachers of the Second Temple Period came to this conclusion using Scripture
alone.. apart from what others may say.
We begin our walk with God with that shared reality. Everything else that we DO as an _expression_ of this deeply felt conviction, is the work of one who is in the process of salvation. James is the one who ties "works" to justification. It is James who declares that "faith alone" will not save -- that it must be accompanied by works. And how do we use this biblical truth? By talking about repentance, confession, baptism, and continued obedience when, in point of fact, James speaks of NONE of these things, Rather, James clearly has in mind the works of a benevolent heart. But I can "fake" my salvation with benevolence just as I can with a correct baptism, or "repentance," or "confession." I know a rather large number of disciples who practice the Law with a diligent sense of holy aspiration that almost defies comprehension yet they are empty as empty can be.
A misunderstanding of James is why many
denominations say that salvation occurs when we do a "work" of some sort. Upon
conversion, I believe we gain the Spirit of the Holy One... baptism or not;
circumcision or not. Ezekiel says that YHVH will give us His Spirit to we WILL
walk in His ways and Keep His Covenant. Therefore, the Spirit is a necessary
ingredient to have the heart to obey; therefore the first work occur AFTER the
Spirit is received and AFTER believing faith has been implanted by that same
Spirit.
Our walk with God CANNOT be faked IF our "faith" in God comes from brokenness and contrition. Can't be done. Since being driven out of the Church of christ, I have worshiped with a number of Christian fellowships. Everyone I know in these fellowships who claims to be a disciple acknowledges Christ as Lord; all have turned around to accept Him; all have been baptized. Paul makes it clear in Roman 14:23, that faith responses do not need to be "correct." The vegetarian in that passage was wrong and he was wrong in a point of doctrine. Clear teaching abounds in scripture regarding the eating of meats but this brother does not agree. Paul even labels him the "weak" brother (because he is wrong on this doctrine) while extolling his faith as a saving experience in the closing verses of that chapter.
Very nice
point.
Baptism "saves" (I Pet 3:21) only because it is an extention of our desire to have a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would argue that any action on my part that extends from this purpose is an act that "saves."
Baptism "saves" (I Pet 3:21) only because it is an extention of our desire to have a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would argue that any action on my part that extends from this purpose is an act that "saves."
Well... I think
Baptism saves us in the same way as the flood waters saved Noach and his family
and the Yam Suf (Sorry... Red/Reed Sea) saved the Children of Yisrael at
the end of the Exodus from Egypt. All three
are saved BY GOD through trusting and [subsequent]
obedience.
I must add that this is not the full picture of salvation by the hand of God. But it is an [a]spect of the saving picture with which we are most familar.
I must add that this is not the full picture of salvation by the hand of God. But it is an [a]spect of the saving picture with which we are most familar.
Well
understood.
--
slade
