Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 2:12-16

Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:31:19 -0700



ShieldsFamily wrote:

Satan loves to divide and conquer. Izzy

DAVEH:  Are you alluding to me, Izzy?

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 11:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 2:12-16

 

'Bishop'John:This new and elevated status becomes you. Don't abuse the newfound power with the ladies. People are looking to you (Bishop John) so weigh your words carefully. 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: August 23, 2004 11:26

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 2:12-16

 

In a message dated 8/22/2004 9:30:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


DAVEH:  John......would you mind elaborating a bit more on how vs 12-16 help this Mongolian who dies without hearing the gospel, please?




DaveH, when you read that passage (Ro 2:12-16), doesn't v v15-16 clearly state that God looks to the heart, the conscience and thoughts of this man with a view to judgment  --  and the possibility of an adequate defense?   I assume that an adequate defense means that he is "saved." 

The question I usually get, since I don't run around much with Calvinists, is --"Well, if this is true, then we need not preach the gospel to anyone."  

That never means much to me because it is a "logical" argument in response to a revelatory consideration.    No contest.  The scripture still says what it says  -- I can only figure out how it now fits into what I think  -- and maybe, just maybe, my thinking is wrong. 

But, more than that, one of the major themes of Romans 1-7 is that man is a fool and needs help.   The fact that this Gentile can be saved is not presented by Paul in this context  for any other reason but to show that those who have the Law are in no better position than those who have not the Law  (v v 17-23). The Jew thinks he has a consideration from God that the Gentile does not have  -- he has  the Law and the Gentile does not.   And, Paul is saying, "So what."  As I read the whole text, it is not that the Gentile or the Jew is better off  - rather, neither is in a good position apart from Christ.  And each bears individual and personal responsiblity for their eternal future apart from Christ.   In Christ, by contrast --  we are credited with righteousness in spite of the fact that it is not personally deserved (Ro 4:3-4 and 23-24) and salvation is the result. 

Compare the wording of verse 15-16 (...alternately accusing or else defending ...") to this pronouncement by Paul  --  "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"  (Eph 2:8).  Which usage gives us the greatest confidence in our salvation--  it is the choice, Dave,  between "maybe" and "you are,"  is it not? 

If the Gentile could have risen to a degree of servitude by instinct that makes salvation a possibility and he is then judged as lost, whose fault is that?   It is his own fault.   He can never seek justification by saying, "John Smithson did not tell me about Jesus -- I have never even heard the name of Jesus"  because, THROUGH CHRIST JESUS (v16) his actions, his heart, his willingness to be honest to himself (his conscience) are a part of his judgment. Ignorance, therefore, is no excuse.

We are not lost because of the sin of Adam.   I hear this a lot  -- Adam sinned so death passed upon all men.   A flat out misuse of scripture as I see it  --  "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, so death spread to all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED"  (Ro 5:12).   This Gentile CAN be saved but his future, apart from having heard the choices he has in the Gospel of Christ is bleak, at best. 

Helps?

John  








-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Reply via email to