David, if you would shorten your posts to me, I would appreceiate it. Just pick one or two points of departure.
I started to do this, but as I worked through it, I found myself responding to much more. Sorry. I'm going to send this because I spent more than an hour on it, but if you choose not to respond, that is fine with me. I think we have a major communication problem. Your short answers are too ambiguos for me to understand, and my long answers are too tedious for you to read. :-)
John wrote:
I WROTE THE FOLLOWING WHICH, FOR SOME REASON, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND -- IF THE AUTHORITATIVE APPEAL IS THE LIFE AND EXAMPLE OF THE LIVING CHRISTWITHIN (and I agree fully)IF THE AUTHORS OF NT SCRIPTURE DO NOT QUOTE OR REFER TO THE WORDS OF CHRIST AS OFTEN AS ONE MIGHT EXPECT (THERE IS NO SUCH APPEAL TO AUTHORITY IN ROMANS AND GALATIANS FOR EXAMPLE), IS THEIR AUTHORITATIVE APPEAL DRAWN FROM THE FACT THAT THEY ARE OR HAVE BEEN QUALIFIED BY THE LIVING CHRIST WITHIN?
You seem to assume in the above that any appeal to authority by the New Testament writers would be an appeal to the words of Jesus Christ. There can be little appeal to Christ as an authority at this time because there simply was not the history to establish who exactly Jesus was. Furthermore, Jesus never wrote anything. The apostles appeal to the authority of Torah and the rest of Scripture. Paul especially makes many such appeals to the authority of Scripture throughout Romans and Galatians. Do you recognize this, or should I quote the relevant passages for you?
John wrote:
THE ELDERS OF THE FIRST CHURCH WERE TO GOVERN THROUGH AND BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY LIVED THEIR LIVES (AS EXAMPLES I PET 5:3). THE PRIMARY AUTHORITY FOR THEIR "RULE" WAS AND IS THE APPROPRIATION OF THE LIVING CHRIST IN THEIR LIVES -- THIS PASSION FOR THE CHRIST THAT JONATHAN SPEAKS OF.
You make authority sound like something that is earned through living the proper example. I view authority differently. Authority is simply given by virtue of assignment. If an employee takes a job, the authority needed to do his job also is delegated to him by means of his appointment. He must then show himself faithful. In the same way, an elder receives authority by virtue of being appointed to be an elder, and he is faithful to that job by living as Christ lived.
Now there is an important distinction that should be made between the appeal to authority, and the authority that one has to minister Christ. You seem to confuse these in the discussion, which makes it difficult for me to understand your perspective.
We appeal to authority in order to establish certain truths. The apostles gave us the example of appealing to Scripture, and of arguing Scripture. This is the proper appeal to authority.
Now I might receive authority from Christ in my prayer closet to go do a certain job for him. He might direct me to preach a certain event, or to go and deliver a message to someone, or to go to someone's house, etc. But that authority is between me and my Lord. I don't go tell people, "Christ gave me authority to deliver this message to you, so you had better listen." No, I go with the authority received from Christ, but my appeal to authority is the written Word of God, the Holy Scriptures. Do you understand where I am coming from?
John wrote:
IN FIRST CENTURY TIMES, LUKE, MATTHEW, PAUL, PETER, ETC ARE BELIEVEABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LIVING AND INDWELLING CHRIST. PAUL ENCOURAGES HIS AUDIENCE TO "FOLLOW ME AS I FOLLOW CHRIST." APPEAL TO SCRITPURE, WHILE USED, IS CERTAINLY NOT THE AUTHORITIVE APPEAL USED TODAY IN OUR INTERPRETATIONS AND GLEANINGS FROM SCRIPTURE (AND I AM "BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE" AS MUCH ANY ON THIS FORUM.)
I really do not understand what difference you see between someone living in Paul's day and hearing him quote the Torah and someone living today and hearing someone like Slade quote the Torah. You would need to develop this thought a little more.
John worte:
BILL, LANCE, JONATHAN, KRUGER, EACH APPEAL TO SCRIPTURE FOR THEIR AUTHORITY BUT, ALSO, INCLUDE THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS WHO LIVE THE LIFE AND PRACTIVE THE INDWELLING. WHY ARE THEY WRONG TO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS WHILE PETER, LUKE, PAUL AND THE FIRST CHURCH WERE DOING THE SAME THING -- GIVING HONOR AND PLACE TO BOTH SCRIPTURE AND BRETHREN OF THE LIVING AND INDWELLING CHRIST?
Surely you know that I have no problem with quoting the writings of others, but to be fair to others who might choose to emphasize a different perspective, I don't know any New Testament writer who appealed to the writing of another New Testament writer as an appeal to authority. Do you? There is a difference between quoting Scripture and quoting the writings of contempories, especially when we are talking about the issue of appealing to authority. Paul wrote:
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
(2 Corinthians 10:12)
David Miller wrote:
3. I don't understand the comment that Paul believed that we were perfected by "another." And why would this be an unusual conclusion?
John wrote:
RMANS 4 TELLS USE THAT THE FAITH (OF CHRIST, I BELIEVE) IS EXCHANGED FOR AND CONSIDERED IN THE PLACE OF OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTIVITY.
I think this is a gross distortion of what the Scriptures teach. It is popular among the Christian "Pharisees" of our day, but read the Scriptures themselves with a little common sense, and we will see that God does not consider faith in the place of our righteous activity. FAITH IS A RIGHTEOUS ACTIVITY. That is the point. Abraham was reckoned to be righteous because of his faith. He believed God and that was a righteous thing. When did he believe God? Before he was circumcised or after he was circumcised? He believed first. His faith led him to be circumcised, but the thing that pleased God was Abraham believing him. That is Paul's point. I see nothing in Romans 4 that would indicate that God exchanged Christ's faith for Abraham's sins. Please expound upon this further if you see something that I am overlooking.
John wrote:
wEW HAVE BEEN MADE RIGHTEOUS BY "NOTHER'"
I PER 1:2 TELLS US THAT THE WOPRK OF SACNTIFICATION
IS THE WORK OF "ANOTHER' (THE SPIRIT). II PETER 1:1 GIVES
US THE REALIZATION THAT FAITH COMES TO US FROM
"ANOTHER" ("to those who have RECEIVED a faith the same kind as
ours ... NASV). pHILIP 2:12,13 TELLS US THAT THE POWER
AND WILL FOR DOING COMES FROM "ANOTHER." i DO
NOT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS.
Well, we obviously read different writings and have developed our understanding through different means. The real thing that I did not understand is how this thought answers what I had written. Following is the exchange we had:
************ David wrote: We need to accept that God's will is to present his message in ambiguous terms, in a mystery, so that only those who actually do his will and receive his Spirit will know his doctrine (and I use "know" in its experiential sense). The fact that Jesus always spoke in parables and not openly is one testimony to this understanding. And Paul said he only spoke the wisdom of God among those who are perfect.
John responded with:
PAUL BELIEVED THAT WE WERE PERFECTED BY ANOTHER. BUT MORE TO THE POINT OF THIS RATHER UNUSUAL CONCLUSION -- THE BIBLE CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY OTHERS THAN THOSE "INFILLED?"
****************
I do not understand what you are trying to say in response to my comment about God presenting his message in ambiguos terms, and I still don't.
David Miller wrote:
4. I don't understand why you say that the Bible cannot be understood "by others than those infilled."
John wrote:
ACTUALLY, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS NOR DID I SAY THIS.
I quote you saying it above. I'm obviously not understanding you. Maybe I should just ignore sentences that I do not understand. I was trying to be polite.
John wrote:
DAVID, WHEN YOU FANTACIZE THAT I SIMPLY "LIKE" ONE PASSAGE MORE THAN ANOTHER, THUS MY THEOLOGY, YOU OFFER A STRANGE AND TRULY UNIQUE WAY OF ASSERTING THE GOODNESS OF MY QUESTION. iN OTHER WORDS, TO SAY WHAT I MEAN TO SAY, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THIS WHO THINKS AND WRITES THIS WAY.
I did not assume that you simply like one passage over another. You contradicted one passage of Scripture quoted by Izzy by denying it outright and giving the reference to another verse (John 3:16). I was asking a sincere and honest question concerning the logic you were using. You continually choose to read more into my questions than is warranted. Do I really have to spend a lot of time patting you on the back before I ask a question? I'm afraid that will lead me into the life of a sycophant.
John wrote:
I WILL HAVE TO ACCUSTOM MYSELF TO YOUR "STYLE" OF WRITING AND PROBING. fORGIVE ME WHEN I TAKE OFFENSE AT WHAT IS NORMALLY CONSIDER OFFENSIVE.
It is only offensive if you assume evil motives. You have made some speeches about considering what others are saying because of the life of Christ which they pursue. I think those are very good points, but I am wondering if I am an exception to your list of people with whom you practice this.
David Miller wrote:
6. I disagree with how you characterize the idea that there were not
"theologians" who referred to texts the way modern ministers do. Modern
ministers today correspond more closely with the "scribes and Pharisees" of
Jesus' day. They did study the texts in this way and wrote about them, but
their writings were never canonized just as modern ministers do not have
their writings canonized.
John wrote:
YOUR POINT IS WELL WRITTEN. BUT I DO NOT SEE THE POINT. THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT 'CONONIZED" IS OF NO IMPORT TO ME.
My point is that you are reading the Bible alone as if all the Biblical scholars of the first century were like the authors of the Bible. Read some other first century writings and you will find them to be much more like the modern theologians that you see as being so different from the Biblical authors.
John wrote:
AND WHAT IS MY POINT, FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY? WELL, IT IS THAT SPIRITUAL AND TRULY DIVINE LESSONS ARE AVAILABLE FROM THOSE WHO ARE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. PERHAPS BILLY-T IS RIGHTEOUS IN HIS THINKING THAT THE cHURCH fATHERS HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND GOD.
Certainly the church fathers have something to offer us in understanding God, but if you read their writings, you will find they differ from the style and authority of the New Testament writings. You often will find a much greater similarity between how modern scholars write and how the church fathers wrote.
David Miller wrote:
8. Why the ranker over misapplying Scripture?
John wrote:
ACTUALLY, I DID NOT SAY THIS. I WROTE " .. so why the ranker when one is SEEN as misapplying scritpure?'
I'm not sure how this changes anything.
John wrote:
MY QUESTION FOLLOWED YOU COMMENT AND ACCURATE
OBSERVATION (IMO) STATED IN THESE WORDS: ".... they lived
it and represented it in person. They themselves became first hand testimony
to the Word of God." I ASSERT THAT THIS PROCESS CONTINUES
TO THIS DAY -- IN THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO ARE IN THE
PROCESS OF LIVING OUT THE WORD OF GOD (READ INDWELLING
CHRIST). IF WE HONOR THEIR PRACTICE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
AND THEIR APPROPRIATION OF THE DIVINE SPIRIT, WE WILL
RESPOND DIFFERENTLY TO THEM WHEN THEY ARE SEEN TO
MISSAPLY SCRIPTURE. IF I DISAGREE WITH JONATHAN OR
BILL OR SLADE,OR JUDY OR LANCE OR WHOEVER, ON A
GIVEN SUBJECT OR INTERPRETATION, MY RESPECT AND
HONOR DOES NOT CHANGE. THAT IS WHY I LISTEN TO THEM
AND, OFTEN, CHANGE MY ACTIONS OR THINKING, BECAUSE
OF THE AUTHORITY I SENSE IN THEM AS THEY TRY TO
APPROPRIATE THE LIVING CHRIST.
I don't have a problem at all with the attitude you express here that we should have toward one another. Nevertheless, if you are trying to argue that our lives alone are the sole appeal to authority that we should have for what we teach, then I have to respectfully disagree. Our lives should not disagree with any Scripture, and neither should our teachings. If someone is twisting Scripture to their own destruction, the loving thing to do is to debate the Scriptures and set them back on the right course. Do you disagree?
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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