Thank you for your quick reply. I just want to
make sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic
alone. So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to conclusions
about what others think. Often I am only creating a parody of
what they actually believe. While it may lead to a few funny/angry
posts it does tend to hinder dialogue rather than contribute to
it.
jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all is
said and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try
and understand what I'm about and I thank you for
that.
In your response you only referred to blessing/cursing
in the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would it be safe for me to
think that you include the blessing/cursing of Deuteronomy within the
concept/category of moral law, and not in the category of Levitical
law?
jt: Yes. In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases
of Egypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at
Sinai.
If this is true, would you be saying that while the
Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, moral law, which
includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us today?
jt: Yes. In Christ we have everything necessary to
overcome and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience which
was not available under Levitical law. Though divine healing was there
for them and it is for us as well as we walk in repentance and learn to
love.
A few other questions that would help me clarify your
position:
1) Would it be true that while only Christ
could fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of fulfilling the
moral law?
jt: Yes. Only He
was without spot or blemish, not having any inheritance in the first Adam -
and since the cross we are capable of fulfilling the moral law through
Him.
2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel from
fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's moral
law?
jt: Unbelief will certainly keep us from fulfilling God's
moral law and this is a constant battle because we have an enemy who has
been around for a long time and who knows lots of tricks and God allows us
to be tested but not beyond what we are able to bear.
3) Does the same grace of God that enables
us to fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to fulfill God's moral
law?
jt: The Levitical law has been fulfilled already in Christ and
headquarters is now at the right hand of the Father in heaven. We are to
follow the Chief Shepherd and keep His Commandments which are to love God,
ourselves, and our neighbors.
4) In another post today there was a comment made
about the 'covering of grace'. While I do not believe that we are
covered by grace (rather we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ), do
you view grace and law as two separate categories that are mutually
exclusive? Or do you believe that grace is present in the
law?
jt: My definition of 'grace' is probably different from what
is generally accepted by much of evangelical Christendom. I don't
believe that grace is ever a cover for sin. Rather grace is the
ability by the power of the cross to overcome sin. We overcome by grace
through faith. Faith was necessary under the law also and grace must
have been there; they were either blessed or cursed according to their
choices in life.
If in any way I am mischaracterizing your thought here
please point it out. Jonathan
jt: Not that I
can see so far Jonathan that is, if when we use a word we are meaning the
same thing.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement
with you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point
to Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus
Jesus.
jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing
Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did
not or could not keep according to Stephen (Acts
7:43)
Jonathan: From past posts of yours which seemed
to place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be
more supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in
thinking this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you
still think we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not
under the laws of Deuteronomy.
jt: Jesus who overcame death and
hell by the 'eternal Spirit' introduced the Kingdom of God
which is the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law
which kills (not gnostic). God's nature,
character and standards, have not ever changed. What is different in this
equation is the believer in Christ who is born anew by the Spirit of
God, indwelled and instructed by the same Spirit, and is given a
heart of flesh along with the desire to love and obey our Lord and
Master. So ultimately it is God in Christ who causes us to
overcome.
Please understand that I am honestly attempting to
understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to
slam you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put
together why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect.
Basically, why are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when
the law was?
jt: The Levitical or
Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or moral
law still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day.
Jesus became a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I don't
have a problem with loving and obeying God according to His Word. What I
have a problem with is putting oneself under these 613 Commands
because it is written that "They which be of faith are blessed with
faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the
curse; for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all
things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no
man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the
just shall live by faith and the law is not of faith; but the man that
doeth them shall live in them." (Galatians
3:9-12)
Can we separate them out so that one still
applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to
Christ but that the blessings/curses have a different purpose and
therefore are still in effect.
jt: I personally love God's moral
law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm 19:7-14 is probably my
favorite scripture or at least one of them; this and Matthew 6:33 are
dear to me.
judyt
By the way I think that your 'two
covenants/houses' analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
From: Susan Petersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Adhering
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is
nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my
commandments. And there is no difference between God's commandments and
Jesus' commandments.
jt: God's condition for salvation is the
obedience that comes through faith and Jesus did not give 613
Commands Suzy. The law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the
sinfulness of sin and to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus
Jesus. There are two houses or Covenants described in
Hebrews 3:
"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly
calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High
Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as
Moses also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of
more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder
of the house has more honor than the house. For every house
is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a
servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose
house we are IF we hold fast our confidence and
the boast of our hope firm until the end"
Judyt
