I believe that there is a relational aspect that needs to be forged prior to the logical being effective. It is this relational aspect that you lack with John and Lance. If they do not feel that you are giving credence to their thoughts or 'listening' it becomes a tit for tat, back and forth argument.
I appreciate your effort to analyze this Jonathan. You make some good points, but I'm not about to play it that way.
From my perspective, what you are talking about is a political football gamethat many people play. I see it and recognize it, but I refuse to play. It seems to me that this method you call "being relational" just plain corrupts good communication. Before long, everybody talks like they are on the same page and they have all these nice, warm fuzzy feelings, but the truth gets left by the wayside. If they insist on playing this way, they can go play with someone else. Seriously. I'm not trying to be mean. I just want to converse with those who are serious about being logical and discussing truth even if it means work or a bloody nose.
If I respond to a post, it is because I believe that there is some credence and merit to the post. People truly need to stop being so sensitive to think that their ideas and concepts should never be challenged, or that they should only be challenged in a way that is polite and socially acceptable to them. It seems to me that conversations have been feminized for decades now and many men simply do not realize it. They have been emasculated and do not know how to stand up for themselves and say what they believe. We have spent way too much time talking about how we talk instead of just discussing issues because some people around here are just too easily offended.
These conversations should never be taken personally. Who cares if somebody on the list thinks you are a child of the devil? There are plenty of folks on this list and elsewhere in this world who hate me greatly. That will not stop me from pursuing Christ, from loving them and others, nor will I stop testifying to truth.
Jonathan wrote:
For the record I do not believe you apprehended Barth correctly. I do believe you took one of your own 'pet' doctrines (perfection) and read a disagreement into Barth's words.
I never pretended to apprehend Barth. I said that I would not discuss Barth because he was not here to clarify his position. As far as I can tell, Barth agrees with me. If he was here to speak for himself, I suspect he would be agreeing with me.
What I did was quote the first sentence: "We ourselves shall never be true to ourselves." I asked if this meant that everyone deceives themselves because this was the subject: self-deception. Then I gave two possibilities of the way in which Lance might be understanding the heart of the matter. The first possibility is that it states a truism, that the source of all faithfulness is God alone. In this context, one must be filled with God's Spirit for him to be faithful. If this is how Lance understood it, then we have agreement between us. Another possible way that this sentence might be used is to argue that no human being ever is or will be faithful to others or even to himself. Such a view, in my opinion, defies the gospel and is anathema. I would hope that Lance, John S. and you could all agree with me on this point. If not, then tell me where the disagreement is. If we cannot be faithful, then why are we believing in Christ? Would we follow him just so he can be the only one who is faithful and we all just admire that from afar?
Now this answer here that you give is one example why I do not like discussing the quotes of others in this forum. Why not make the case yourself? Let's quit beating around the bush about it. DO YOU, Jonathan, believe that no human being can be faithful to others? Can a person be faithful to himself? Yes or No?
Lance certainly seemed to be making the argument that I deceive myself, and he was using Barth to make his case. The problem is that he is so afraid of hurting someone's feelings that he just won't come right out and make his argument. Either that, or there is no argument to make, only a feeling that he has about it.
Jonathan wrote:
Proving that somebody is wrong using a logical argument rarely leads to the other person changing.
No, but it often helps those observing the exchange who do not have their personal ego's involved to understand the facts and the ultimate truth on the matter.
One thing you said very well, and that is the idea that this forum is about discussion, not debate. However, it is not to discuss interesting things we have read or news of the day. There are lots of other lists for things like that. We kind of form a community here, and so some of that will happen, but the real idea of the list is to discuss truth. People approach truth in different ways. Science approaches it differently from religion. Atheists approach it differently from believers. Real discussion takes place when we express our perception of truth and explain why it is the way we see it. People can consider it and challenge the idea from different angles. If the idea holds up to challenges, the idea gains credence. If the idea is shot down or falsified, then it must be discarded and a new hypothesis constructed. Those who will never discard false ideas that they have will hate this process and likely leave. Those who hate having their views challenged likewise will not like this process. Those who find truth fascinating and love the experience of new discovery and broadened understanding will love it.
You made mention of how I reply to the posts of others and seemed to cast that in a negative light. Would you prefer me not to reply, but instead use my time to write some articles to post here from time to time? I have been considering that such might be a better use of my time right now. I have two articles on my mind right now.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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