You are clearly a comlusive/complusive -- nto able to ignore a single point or narrow a discussion to one or two point. No concern for those who might consider reading the response. You seem to think you might "win" because of many words. My response is in CAPS. John
In a message dated 11/17/2004 7:12:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:
>KD writes before Nathan points the finger and says, "Thou art the man" in
>Ps 7.
I'm not sure this was written before Nathan did this, but for the sake of
discussion, I will assume this to be true. If you have any evidence that it
was, please share it.
John wrote:
>He not only gives request to the Lord to judge him (David)
>on the basis of his own righteousness -- a man who is
>guilty of one of the most involved and degenerate of crimes,
>but makes it clear that if he were to sin against a friend
>(think Uriah) it is his request that he be stomped into the
>ground !!! Stupid.
Stupid? See, here is my problem. You judge David, a man after God's own
heart, as arrogant and now stupid. Who made you such a judge? David's
psalm is in our Bible as part of God's Holy Word, preserved for all of
mankind, and you call the message of this psalm stupid and arrogant!
DAVID WAS SPEAKING FOR DAVID. INSPIRATION AND REVELATION ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE THE BIBLICAL MESSAGE IS INSPIRED -- NOT SOMETHING I CAN PROVE, JUST SOMETHING I BELIEVE. WHO MADE ME JUDGE???? AN HONEST QUESTION NO DOUBT -- THE ANSWER -- IT SEEMS OBVIOUS THAT THE ANSWER ISSSSSSSSSS "I DID." THE BIBLICAL MESSAGE WAS WRITTEN FOR MY UNDERSTANDING. IT SPEAKS TO MY SENSE OF JUDGMENT AND YOURS AND IZZY (THE ENGLISH VERSIONS ONLY) AND LANCE AND SLADE AND SO ON. THE MIRACLE OF "GOD'S WORD" IS THAT ANY NUMBER OF LESSONS CAN BE TAUGHT BY GOD FROM A SINGLE PASSAGE,
OH, BY THE WAY --- YOU NEED TO REVISIT READING AND LISTENING 101. I DID NOT CALL THE "MESSAGE" ARROGANT AND STUPID, DID I ? I ATTRIBUTED THOSE ATTITUDES TO KDAVID ..... DIDN'T I. SO LET'S GET THAT STRAIGHT. ALL YOU ARE TRYING TO DO, HERE, IS PREJUDICE THE JURY.
I realize that David does not think like modern theologians and ministers,
but the testimony of God is that he was right in everything except the
matter of Uriah. What you call arrogant and stupid I call integrity and
boldness. I wish you were more like David in psalm 7. I wish everyone was
like David in psalm 7 and psalm 51.
I USED TO BE EXACTLY LIKE DAVID IN PS 7. ARROGANT AND STUPID WHEN IT CAME TO THE WAYS OF THE LORD. CHANGE IS GOOD.
John wrote:
>When, in fact , he offers evil to his friend, when, in fact,
>he digs a pit and falls into it -- what is his request and
>attitude then? It certainly is not STOMP ME INTO THE
>GROUND, is it (anyone)? Rather, we find him begging
>for mercy. The point is there in black and white.
>David says one thing in Ps 7 and something very different
>in Ps 51.
I agree with you that the message is different because the circumstances are
different.
GOT THAT RIGHT. BEFORE NATHAN, DAVID WAS A PHONEY (arrogant, stupid and now phoney -- yep, I said all that ABOUT KDAVID). AFTER NATHAN, DAVID BECAME A MAN AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART.
James 4 teaches us how to repent in the following passage:
James 4:8-10
(8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye
sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to
mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
(10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Are we always to be afflicated and mourn and weep? Are we always to be sad?
Of course not. We are to turn happiness to sorrow when we sin and need to
repent. But let us realize that this is TEMPORARY while we repent of our
sin. We are not to be continually in a state of repentance. Even David
said in Psalm 51,
ONE ONLY NEEDS TO REPENT ONCE -- IF WE UNDERSTAND THAT REPENT MEANS A CHANGE OF MIND. BUT CONFESSION IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE INVOLVED WITH ON A CONTINUAL BASIS.
Psalms 51:12-13
(12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free
spirit.
(13) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be
converted unto thee.
John wrote:
>I do not see this [Job] as having any bearing on my comments,
>nor does it help me to understand the situation with KDavid.
The connection is that a study of Job reveals a man who was very humbled by
circumstances. His family and possessions taken, and sickness and boils
overtake his body. His friends sit with him in his misery for seven days
saying nothing, and then eventually they say words to the effect, "Job,
surely you have sinned somewhere and you need to ask God's forgiveness!"
This was a huge temptation to Job, to set aside his integrity and say,
"Well, I don't know what I did, but surely I must have sinned somewhere for
God to treat me this way." Instead, Job's response was more to the effect
of, "I have not sinned... your words wound me! Go away and be quiet." God
was angry with Job's friends for trying to get him to admit that he was a
sinner and that God was a Just and Holy God. God was pleased with Job for
maintaining his integrity. David's psalm 7 is a psalm of integrity like
Job's intergrity in the face of his temptation to confess sin which he had
never done. Please do not insult God's Word by calling it stupid and
arrogant.
READING AND LISTENING 101. YOU MADE YOUR POINT ABOUT PS 7 AND I HAVE MADE MINE. WE DISAGREE OVER INTERPRETATION AND OPINION. THAT LAST SENTENCE, HOWEVER, IS NOT OPINION. IT IS A TERRIBLE MISREPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID. SORRY THAT YOU FEEL THE NEED TO DO THIS.
John wrote:
>There is the promise and the reality. When we overcome
>sin, it is by the power of God. That is the fulfillment (in a
>sense) of the promise. But we can never say that we are
>without sin. That is a biblical concept and an absolute reality.,
>as well.
It sounds like you are saying that the promise only operates some of the
time. I believe that God's promises are true and a reality all the time, as
long as we believe it and walk in it. The time when God's promises fail is
when we turn away from them.
ACTUALLY YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BELIEVES GOD'S PROMISES ARE A SOMETIME DEAL. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SIN INTERFERS WITH GOD'S GRACE AND INTERACTION WHILE YOU DO.
No man can say that he is without sin because every man has tasted sin,
including Jesus Christ. Jesus was made to be sin for us. This does not
mean that Jesus committed sin. It simply means that he experienced the
temptation and effects of sin, being made a man like the rest of us. Those
of us in Christ can have this same testimony as Jesus Christ. That is what
it means to be *IN* Christ.
I AM SURPISED AT JUST HOW MUCH YOU HAVE TO LEARN ABOUT THE GRACE OF GOD AND THE FUNCTION OF THE CONTINUAL FLOW OF THE BLODD OF THE LAMB.
YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING THAT BEING SINLESS IS BEING "IN" CHRIST.
Please do not confuse the idea of having sin (a noun) with the idea of
committing sin. Any person who says he is in Christ and continues to sin is
a liar.
ANY ONE WHO SAYS HE IS WITHOUT SIN IS A LIAR.......I JO 1:8
1 John 3:5-10
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is
no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen
him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the
devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that
loveth not his brother.
This passage I quote is not just theoretically true, nor is it just a
promise as opposed to reality. When we believe God's Word, it becomes a
reality in our lives. We can believe God for the remission of sins and then
we experience it in truth.
ALL OF THE REALITY OF THE ABOVE IS IN CHRIST. OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, OUR INCREASING FAITH, OUR WILLINGNESS TO ACT, THE CONTINUAL FLOW, THE BLESSINGS OF CONTINUAL CONFESSION -- ALL ARE IN CHRIST.
John wrote:
>The remission of sins is found in the sacrifice of Christ.
Amen, and also in the resurrection and life of Christ, as he ever lives to
make intercession for us.
AMEN.
John wrote:
> ... AND, it is a theme of sorts in your writing that we are to be
>real men, no room for the warm and fuzzies, no place for sniveling
>and cowering. There are times when I kneel during worship when
>everyone else is standing, tears come to my eyes on every occasion
>of worhsip, raised hands and honor are given without remorse.
I don't mean to give the impression that men can never do what you have just
described. I spend much more time on my knees crying and being emotional
before God than being bold. That is why I tend to focus upon the need for
men to be courageous, bold, ambitious, warriors, fighters, putting the enemy
to flight, vocal about what is right in our world of sin, etc. However,
most of my humble time is private and before God alone. I find that when I
represent God in public, he inspires me to be a different kind of person.
I FIND THAT GOD ACCEPTS ME JUST AS I AM - IN WORSHIP AND IN THE STREETS.
John wrote:
>A few years ago, I absolutely could not do any of that.
>When I raised my boys, there was no home in Fresno
>more macho than ours. Wrestlers all -- and very
>good wrestlers, in fact. Me with a terrible temper.
>Not afraid of confrontation. On rare occasions --
>still a problem. And in the evening, when it is all said
>and done, not proud of any aspect of that life as means
>for separation from my Lord.
Sorry to hear about your past. We definitely have different personalities.
I've always been the shy, quiet type and prone to cry.
THEN STOP TALKING LIKE A TOUGH GUY. I AM NOT SORRY ABOUT WHO I AM OR EVEN WHO I WAS. I REGRET THE SEPARATION I FELT. BUT GROWTH IS A PART OF LIFE AND GROWTH INCLUDES AN INCREASING ABILITY TO "GO THY WAY AND SIN NO MORE."
About 25 years ago, I was sleeping in my dorm room at college. The Lord
sent a prophet to my room at 3:00 a.m. I remember opening my eyes and
seeing him standing in the doorway dimly lit from the hall lights. For some
reason, my roommate and I must have forgotten to lock the door. As I lifted
my head slightly and blinked my eyes to try and see what was going on, he
said to me, "David, God doesn't want you to be some sniveling coward saying,
'woe is me. Why are these things happening to me.' God wants you to be a
man, to be bold, to stand in the grace of God. The Lord does not want you
to be retreating but advancing." Then without another word, he turned
around, shut the door, and left. I was impressed that he would drive over
from some distance away to deliver this message to me and not even stay
around and talk about it. At the same time, I thought his word to me made
no sense. I'm suppose to be crying to God, aren't I? Well, his words took
root in me and woke me up from my spiritual slumber. No, God did not want
me to stay in a crying state. He wanted me to be humble before him, but
also bold and courageous as his Spirit lifted me up. He wanted me to gain
strength from my private weakness before God, and then rise up like David
did to slay Goliath, or like Jesus did to cast the money changers out of the
temple.
JUST DON'T CONFUSE THIS PROPHETICAL IMPERATIVE FOR YOU WITH GOD'S SPECIFIC DESIRE FOR ANY ONE ELSE. AN EXCITING STORY. WE ALL GLORY IN GOD'S VISITATIONS.
So I guess I have been growing in Christ these last 25 years to become more
like you, and you have been growing in Christ to be more like me? You
think?
THERE IS SO MUCH TENSION BETWEEN THE TWO OF US THAT I CANNOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION EXCEPT TO SAY, "I HOPE SO." TRULY.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
