David: What a piece of work! Thanks so much.
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: December 22, 2004 15:07 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Hebrew Mindset > Pete wrote: > > What evidence does he present? Does he actually say that he got his ideas > > from Moses or does Justin Martyr assert this from his own beliefs? > > Plato never credits Moses at all. > > With regards to the arguments of Justin Martyr, I think we should first > consider that he would not think it possible that a heathen like Plato would > receive revelation directly himself. Certainly Plato makes no claims to > revelation like Moses did, so it is reasonable to think that he borrowed his > ideas from others whom he had read. Justin Martyr argues from the fact that > Moses was much more ancient than Plato and that Plato had access to the > writings of Moses. Justin Martyr quotes many of the similar teachings of > Plato, comparing them to Moses. Basically, Justin Martyr argues that Plato > plagerized from the Hebrews the correct viewpoint concerning the spirit > world, monotheism, the nature of God being fiery, the goodness of God, the > impending judgment of men for how they have lived, etc. He argues that > Plato, in order to safeguard himself from the criticism that he was > borrowing from the Hebrews, changed some of the terminology. > > Following are some quotes to give you a taste of how he argues such: > > Justin Martyr (110 - 165 A.D.) > The First Apology of Justin > -------------------------------- > CHAPTER 44 > NOT NULLIFIED BY PROPHECY > ... > ... And so, too, Plato, when he says, "The blame is his who chooses, > and God is blameless," took this from the prophet Moses and uttered it. > For Moses is more ancient than all the Greek writers. And > whatever both philosophers and poets have said concerning the > immortality of the soul, or punishments after death, or contemplation of > things heavenly, or doctrines of the like kind, they have received such > suggestions from the prophets as have enabled them to understand and > interpret these things. And hence there seem to be seeds of truth among all > men; but they are charged with not accurately understanding [the truth] > when they assert contradictories. So that what we say about future events > being foretold, we do not say it as if they came about by a fatal necessity; > but God foreknowing all that shall be done by all men, and it being His > decree that the future actions of men shall all be recompensed according to > their several value, He foretells by the Spirit of prophecy that He will > bestow meet rewards according to the merit of the actions done, always > urging the human race to effort and recollection, showing that He cares and > provides for men. But by the agency of the devils death has been decreed > against those who read the books of Hystaspes, or of the Sibyl, or of the > prophets, that through fear they may prevent men who read them from > receiving the knowledge of the good, and may retain them in slavery to > themselves; which, however, they could not always effect. For not only do > we fearlessly read them, but, as you see, bring them for your inspection, > knowing that their contents will be pleasing to all. And if we persuade > even a few, our gain will be very great; for, as good husbandmen, we shall > receive the reward from the Master. > > ... > > Chapter 59 > PLATO'S OBLIGATION TO MOSES > And that you may learn that it was from our teachers - we mean the > account given through the prophets - that Plato borrowed his statement > that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear > the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the > first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through > whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials > God at first formed the world, spake thus: "In the beginning God created > the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and > darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over > the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so." So that both > Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and > you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was > made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the > poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses. > > CHAPTER 60 > PLATO'S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS > And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the > Timaeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the > universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of > Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt > and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers > and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that > Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it > into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to > the > people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby." > And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is > handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato > reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it > was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he > said > that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. > And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said > above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved > over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with > God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place > to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the > third around the third." And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified > through Moses that there should be a conflagration. He spoke thus: > "Everlasting fire shall descend, and shall devour to the pit beneath." It is > not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in > imitation of ours. Among us these things can be heard and learned from > persons who do not even know the forms of the letters, who are > uneducated and barbarous in speech, though wise and believing in mind; > some, indeed, even maimed and deprived of eyesight; so that you may > understand that these things are not the effect of human wisdom, but are > uttered by the power of God. > -------------------------------- > > Justin Martyr (110 - 165 A.D.) > Justin's Hortatory Address to the Greeks > -------------------------------- > CHAPTER 33 > PLATO'S IDEA OF THE BEGINNING > OF TIME DRAWN FROM MOSES > And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was > created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: "Time, accordingly, > was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being > together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution > should take place." Had he not learned this from the divine history of > Moses? For he knew that the creation of time had received its original > constitution from days and months and years. Since, then, the first day > which was created along with the heavens constituted the beginning of all > time (for thus Moses wrote, "In the beginning God created the heavens > and the earth," and then immediately subjoins, "And one day was made," > as if he would designate the whole of time by one part of it), Plato names > the day "time," lest, if he mentioned the "day," he should seem to lay > himself open to the accusation of the Athenians, that he was completely > adopting the expressions of Moses. And from what source did he derive > what he has written regarding the dissolution of the heavens? Had he not > learned this, too, from the sacred prophets, and did he not think that this > was their doctrine? > -------------------------------- > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
