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IMO if David were a fisherman he'd catch and
return. If he were a hunter he's only conduct pretend 'kills'.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: December 30, 2004 00:18
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Sinless
Perfection
In a message dated 12/28/2004 4:35:39 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John Smithson wrote:
>... I think the issue continues
to be a point of disagreement
>because we use the idea of "sin" very
differently. I see
>lust, conceit, selfishness,
pride, things I consider to be sin,
>as always with an
individual making a statement like the
>one found in I Jo 1:8 a
current and on going reality.
>But, of course, we do not need to act
out such failings.
That is pretty much what I believe too,
John. Until the resurrection, a sin
principle resides in our flesh
(our physical bodies). That is why our
physical body continues to
die and must die and be resurrected in order to
inherit eternal life.
This is why I do not use the term "sinless
perfection." I do use
the term perfection sometimes, because it is
Biblical.
And this is why I believe
that sin is ever present. We are always sinners.
"committing" a sin makes me no more a sinner that these "character
flaws." This is the reason for the truth of of Romans 3:23 -
and our on going falling short of the glory of God.
John Smithson wrote:
>More than this, you
believe that righteousness (acting
>out rightly the things of God) is
caused by the Spirit of
>God rather than gifted by that same
Spirit.
I believe that it is both. The gift of righteousness is
the Spirit working
within us to cause us to love one
another.
I still do not think we agree here. What righteousness
(right action per the Law) we accomplish is tributed to the working of God
indwelling. But, this does not find us "righteous" at the end of
the day -- any day -- because of our
own failings. So God considers us righteous or reckons
righteousness apart from our failing obedience through or because of the faith
of Christ and our response to His faithfulness.
John Smithson wrote:
>The problem, again, may be in
the words we use.
Maybe.
Even though I think we
disagree, this still might be true.
John Smithson wrote:
>But I do not believe that such
success is
>ever total, hence the need for a
gifted
>righteousness by that same Spirit.
I believe this
too. I just speak more about this "gifted righteousness" and
how
it works through us rather than how my old man could never get total
success over sin.
You are amazing.
John Smithson wrote:
>We have had this discussion
before - some
>months ago. You wound up defending
your
>point by asserting your own victorious and
>consistent
practice of righteousness.
I don't think so. I sometimes am put
on the spot and asked to answer
whether or not I am talking theory or
reality, but I rarely want the
spotlight to come on me in this
discussion. That does not help anyone. The
spotlight needs
to be on Jesus and what God's Holy Word teaches us.
We most definitely did have a
discussion. Nothing wrong with admitting that. I do not understand
the need for the above after "I don't think so." It is not that I don't
understand what you said, rather, it is that I have no idea why you said
it.
John Smithson wrote:
>When I asserted that even you
have continuing sin
>-- well, you took it personal, when,
in fact, such
>an observation on my part was a forced
conclusion
>based upon the way I see biblical teaching.
>It is
not personal.
Again, you misunderstand me. I never take it
personal when someone says
that I continue to sin and that I am deluded
to think otherwise. Reasonable people, then, would think that you just
said that you do think otherwise. I hear
this all the
time. I realize that those who say it just don't realize the
sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit that I have experienced, and they
want
to claim that nobody else can know it either. So the only
disciples with the Spirit of Discernment, are those who agree with your
claims? I am not trying to be over critical --
just asking. The Jews had the same problem
with
the Christians, the saved verses the unsaved ? as seen in the
Scriptures and the early church writings. Its no skin off my
nose. I am no more offended by it than when I
preach Jesus Christ
and someone tells me that Satan rules or that I am
throwing my life away
on religion. They are not disagreeing with me, but
with what God
has put within me. When the biblical message says "test the spirits that
they be of God," what is allowable conduct as fas as you, a
professed Prophet, is concerned. It is not really a personal
rejection.
John
Smithson wrote:
>You are no more righteous than I, David.
>You
are in the same boat as I when it comes
>to sin and
sinning -- one sin or one continuing
>sin will
put us in the same boat. At no time in
>our lives will we
ever not need God's forgiveness.
I agree with all of
this.
John Smithson wrote:
>I see sin, sinning, sins of the
character (pride, bigotry etc),
>sins of omission (knowing to do
good but not doing it),
>issues or problems that have already been
solved as
>concerns "condemnation."
Hey, me too. The
blood of Christ and the power of the Spirit is sufficient
to cover all
these sins. Intentional and not.
John Smithson
wrote:
>Rebellion is a totally different matter.
Again, we
agree.
John Smithson wrote:
>But we need to be careful
here. Most sins,
>while in the process of being played
out, look
>like rebellion. What proves one sin to be
rebellious
>and another a part of our human nature is
whether
>growth occurs or continues. The rebel is one
who
>is actually working against God Himself.
As usual,
we agree again. I just sprewed orange juice all over my
monitor. Thanks a lot. Now I have to go find a rag.
John Smithson wrote:
>Now, there is much in the above with
which
>you disagree.
I don't think we disagree on that much,
but I will let you decide that for
yourself.
John Smithson
wrote:
>I hope that you will see that honest and Spirit
>filled
disciples can have this disagreement.
Yes we can, but sometimes I
don't know what it is that you think we disagree
on. When you take
time to expound, it seems we agree on most things. Dang
- I got to go get another rag !! Is there anyone in
the house who think David and I think alike -- I mean
anyone? Great if true.
Peace be with
you.
David Miller.
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