----- Original Message -----
Sent: January 02, 2005 09:52
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Creeds and the
Bob the Builder mentality..
jt: I submit that these creeds are the
problem and the men who came up with them had a "Builder Bob" mentality.
They were going to "fix it!!" and it
sounds as though they actually thought they could amongst all
the political intrigue and infighting and vying for favor with
their half pagan Emperor who had the last word.
I have to confess that
[horrors!!] for the first time I have been reading
some writings by the Church Fathers to try and sort through some
of this Creed business on TT because I can not understand why some of you
allow them more authority and deference than the Word of God
itself. I note that by the time of Athanasius and the Council at
Nicea what was calling itself the Church [which was by no means every
believer] were well off the rails. Constantine and his
sons wanted unity for the sake of Empire and political
expediency and Truth was not a high
priority.
In contrast the Church that Jesus
founded had no creeds and no doctrine of "eternal Sonship" - The
apostles were Biblicists who let God be God. Look
at how it functioned from the start. Peter exhorts the people by God's
Word. Those who gladly received his words were baptized and that
day 3,000 souls were added to them [Acts 2:41,47]. This is power
without force. Then we see over and over in the book of Acts how
the Word grew [Acts 12:24; 19:20] and how God
added to the Church daily those who were being saved.
I had never studied what Arius taught and
still don't know all of it but from what I have read so far his
questions make a lot of sense. He asks:
1) If the Son were, [according to Athanasius
interpretation] eternally existent with God, He would
not have been ignorant of the Day [of His return Mark 13:4,32]
but would have known it as the Word [God in His
Omnipotence].
2) Nor would He have been forsaken [on the
cross] if he was co-existent...
3) Nor would he have had to pray at all...
because being the Word, he would have needed
nothing.
What's wrong with these questions?
Dealing with heresy and hereticks was the justification for why these
creeds came into being. However there is no precedent for this in
scripture either. Jesus said to "leave them alone, it was the blind
leading the blind" Paul counselled putting one man who refused to
repent out for a period of time and later said that even if someone preaches
from wrong motives we should rejoice because Jesus name is being lifted up.
[my paraphrase] - John wrote that their teaching would reveal
those in error but we (who are in Christ) have an anointing from the
Holy One and we need not fear them. I'd sure rather run with
the Biblicists than be at the mercy of those who took to heart and
followed the creeds - and I'm sure most of you have read enough Church
History to know the outcome. Nothing but bloodshed and evil ever
since.
Given the ever present infighting over 'the place of creeds in
relation to truth' we shall see. You, of course, experience
similar contentiousness from and within your own tradition. You may not have
as many but, the wrangling is just as bitter with each convinced of it's own
intrinsic 'rightness' and your 'wrongness'.
Lance Muir wrote: I wouldn't necessarily agree, Dave. When employing the adjective
'cultic' and, when one reviews the cavalier even dismissive tone of some
on TT in 2004 with respect to 'the faith once delivered...' ,the
winner of the 'most accused' award might not be you.
DAVEH: Though I wish it
were not so, I've been here longer and seen a bit more than you may be
aware.
Please try harder in
2005.
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm......I think
with the nearly unanimous vote of most TTers, I'll continue wearing the
big C badge this year. But I'll just consider it a symbol of
Christianity. :-)
Dave
Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: FWIW....I think I'm the one who has been
accused of such more than any others.
Jonathan: Yes DaveH. You are correct.
Hence the cultic beliefs of some on
this
forum.
===============================================
Without
doubt, you hold the record
Dave.:-)
Terry
