On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:12:47 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If you go back to my post, you will find scripture that reveals what I was talking about. I never reference New Age or 12 step programs as a source of "truth." But you know that.
jt: I know you have never referenced
them John but without spiritual discernment we can be professing believers and
follow the same mindset. What's wrong with using the same terms as God uses
to portray spiritual truth? God is only within us in terms of the
Holy Spirit and when we ignore, grieve, or refuse to obey him we are 'on our
own' for all intents and purposes. I don't see that remaining carnal is
acceptable with God because "To be carnally minded is death" and "to be
spiritually minded is life and peace" How will walking in "death" lead to
life?
In view of the scriptures above, how could we not think and believe that our actions or God's actions. I am not saved by that response -- rather, I am saved by that relationship. The reponses just happen.
Really? And what if there is no godly fruit in the life - what then? Do you believe this "relationship" doctrine will save you from the wrath of God against all ungodliness and unrighteousness in men even if you never ever OVERCOME in your own life personally?
This is what I believe and said I loose my salvation when I move to serve myself and in so doing, deny the very Image I am. I am destroyed in serving self. Does that sound as though I believe that Christ in me will not produce godly fruit? I certainly do not mean it that way.
For instance let's look at Amber Frey who is well known and in the news right now. She was raised a Baptist, went to Church and SS but lacked a godly example at home. Still she was taught in God's Word. As a teen she became pg and had an abortion which so traumatized her she vowed never to do that again. Later in an affair with a man barely separated who had a pg wife she became pg again and insisted upon carrying this baby to term even tho he wasn't ready to be a dad. Then came Scott Peterson and a seduction on their first date along with the public humiliation and all that .. but even before Amber witnessed at the trial she was fornicating again (with the son of this "wonderful Christian couple") and was pg by another fellow who was 'not ready to be a dad'. This girl is obviously hurting and has obvious spiritual problems but in her book Amber quotes scripture all over the place. She talks of attending Chosen Woman meetings and Bible Studies. She sent Scott Peterson "The Purpose Driven Life" book as a witness to him in prison. Note: I admire the girls honesty and the fact that she was willing to put her life out there warts and all but what kind of a witness for Christ is this? Are Amber's actions God's actions? Dosen't he say "fornicators don't inherit the Kingdom?".
I know that what she does is wrong. But I also know that she is no different than me (Romans 2:1ff). That is what I KNOW. Is she lost or saved -- depends upon whether she is growing or not. Is she a carnal Christian -- it would appear so. But a carnal Saint is a saint, nonetheless.
jt: The above is deception
John. The one who is righteous DOES righteousness. He who SINS
is of the devil (1 John 3:7,8 3; John 11)
An obedience to repentance? If you mean, by that, actions that demonstrate a change of heart/mind, my answer is the same. The prodigal son demonstrates this obedience to repentance, does he not? But why did he turn around? Two reasons. 1) he was headed in the wrong direction -- leaving his community and moving away for the expressed purpose of serving himself. Correct? 2) He turns around because there is a reason to turn around -- a father who is already there. A home. An inheritance. A life. Acceptance without question. Forgiveness without reservation. He is 'saved" when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with community.
Nothing is said at all about community in the Parable of the prodigal son so you are adding to the Words of God here..
The word "forgiveness" is also not found in the text. So what? Father, home, brother, blessings -- are all "community" just as acceptance by the father IS forgiveness. Much to do about nothing ????
jt: Really? So you add that
also? We know the Father was glad to see him, we don't know whether or not he
left the next week to go to a different pigpen. As for community; there wasn't
much fellowship with the elder brother, he was jealous and in sin - sin breaks
fellowship and destroys the concept of community.
Since the Father did not follow the son into the pigpen to try and talk him into coming back or bless him into coming back (he was obviously cursed and in poverty there)
So the Father does not overtake the will of the son? Would we say that the father standing on the porch, the blessings of the home, love and acceptance within the doors of that dwelling constituted a "draw" that brought the prodigal home???
jt: From the parable we can know that
he got tired of eating the slop that was fed to pigs and he remembered that even
the hired hands were more comfortable at his Father's table.
It's always good to remember also that Jesus was speaking this parable
to a Covenant people who called God their Father because of
Abraham.
what this parable demonstrates is that there must be "repentance without regret" before there can be "forgiveness without reservation" Don't forget there is also a community in the pigpen out there.
All you describe above is what a statement of reality. As long as one is serving only self, moving away from the Lord in a deliberate way, there is little that God can do. I think more germain to our discussion is this question: when, exactly, was the prodigal saved? When he came to himself? When he turned and started the trek home? When he saw his father? When he came to the door of the house? When he entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal? I say -- in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud, coming to himself.
what this parable demonstrates is that there must be "repentance without regret" before there can be "forgiveness without reservation" Don't forget there is also a community in the pigpen out there.
All you describe above is what a statement of reality. As long as one is serving only self, moving away from the Lord in a deliberate way, there is little that God can do. I think more germain to our discussion is this question: when, exactly, was the prodigal saved? When he came to himself? When he turned and started the trek home? When he saw his father? When he came to the door of the house? When he entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal? I say -- in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud, coming to himself.
jt: I wouldn't pronouce him saved at any
of these points because it is "the one who endures to the end that is saved"
(Matt 10:22)
