Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!

Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:46:47 -0800

Judy, You are impossible! If I answer you at all, it will be at a time that I would otherwise be wasting anyway. I did highlight one statement below. You can take a peak at it if you like.
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!

 
 
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:54:28 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Judy, you amaze me. I do know whether to chuckle or choke. I do hope that Debbie will come on and state in a little more detail what she is attempting to communicate here, because if it is what I think it is, it is truly a wonderful insight. But I am plenty happy to respond to my portion of your bewilderment. I cannot imagine what you are thinking I have communicated, because when I read your post, excepting the question at the beginning, I think there is not a single contradiction between what Debbie and I have written and the Passages you have blessed us by sharing. I am most emphatically not talking about a mystical experience that takes the place of hearing the Gospel, nor am I thinking of one that leads people away from the Gospel -- such as Gnosticism would and does. I am talking about the Holy Spirit working in unison with the Gospel, even before the Gospel is preached. Do you not think that happens?
 
jt: No I don't Bill.  That would be magic and God isn't into those kinds of things. In His economy faith comes by hearing and hearing - by the Word of God.
 
I apologize but it is too late for me to think cogently enough to articulate this very well, but I believe that not a single person would ever come to faith in Jesus Christ were it not for the Spirit preparing that person to respond to him in faith. Where my teaching diverges from classical Calvinism is that where the Calvinists believe that only some are wooed by the Spirit. I believe that the Spirit woos every single person who will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel. Another point of divergence is that they believe this wooing is irresistible; I do not. As unfathomable as it is to me that anyone would refuse the Spirit's wooing, some people do. I don't know why, and I don't know how, but they do. I strongly believe, however, that the Holy Spirit very much wants them to respond to Christ in faith.
 
jt: I'd lay Calvin's ideas aside entirely and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal God's Word to you. Where in scripture does this idea of "wooing" originate?  I don't believe I have ever seen it.
 
Now let me go back and pick up on something I just said. I said that the Spirit woos everyone who will have an opportunity to hear the Good News. I mean that -- I mean that not a single person who could have, will ever miss out on the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also believe when I say this that there a some -- many -- people over the history of redemption who have just plain not had that opportunity. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak. Do I believe that God will hold them responsible for there not having heard? Absolutely not. And so I do not know what kind of revelation he gives these people, if he gives them anything at all, other than that which is written in the splendor of his creation. What I am saying is that I do not know if his Spirit "woos" those people. And I say this because if he did, then you would have what you could call something on the order of what you questioned me about: a mystical, gnostic-type experience, whereby they could not know Jesus Christ, yet would be tapped into his Spirit, somehow magically mystically.
 
jt: So Izzy is understanding you correctly and you do believe along these lines ie: that if people have never had the chance to refuse then they will go to heaven because of the trinity/incarnation or whatever.  Which then means that the apostles and true believers have been martyred in vain? 
 
I do believe this, and I have stated it before, that those who have not rejected Jesus Christ will not be sent to hell. And so, if those who cannot have heard the Gospel, because of circumstances beyond their control, do die and go to hell, then I think there must be some sort of implicit revelation which is intrinsic to nature, which reveals the true character and image and presence of Jesus Christ to those people. I do not know how to understand this; I simply know that it must be true.
 
jt: Goodness gracious, you are into gnosticism.  I wouldn't accept anything as true that I can not see in God's Word and I can assure you that Holy Spirit wooing and this are not there. 
 
Back to your concern: Please do not miss what I am saying by attempting to over-understand it. It is not that deep or difficult. I wish we had never even seen the word "Gospel"; it is sort of a pseudo-translation -- partly Greek and partly English. The word should be translated "Good News" so that when we see it, and when we hear it, we would think about it in terms of what it is: Good News! What a wonderful verse you shared:
 
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel... (Rom 10:14-16)
 
" Back in those days messages were sent to people by curriers. Men would travel, mostly by foot, from one post to the next carrying messages for people. And the people got to where they could tell long before the currier got to them whether the message was going to be good news or bad news, and they could tell this just by the way the currier was carrying his feet. If it was good news the currier had energy and kicked up his feet and left a trail of dust behind him; for he was bringing glad tidings of good things. But if it was bad news that he was bringing, he carried himself differently; he was sluggish, and hesitant, not desiring to deliver that which he knew would only rob the people of their peace.
 
jt: Then how is it that we don't see this system in the book of Acts or in any of the Epistles Bill? I see Missionary teams of preachers going out. I see Paul going to the temple and to synagogues where he is beaten, stoned, flogged, and run out of town by night.  Are you saying he missed it, that this was all in vain because he could have used a courier?
 
Look, Judy, at what Paul says here: "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Good News of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" He is painting for his readers a picture of that currier carrying good news -- news so good that the people could tell before it even got to them that it was truly Good News!!
 
jt: I've never seen it that way Bill. I understand it more in terms of men who have their feet shod with the gospel of peace.. and we know that God uses preaching and preachers.  You're letting me down here and using outsourcing again. Can we stay with God's Word please? 
 
Now take into consideration the second portion of Paul's statement, the heartbreak that it provokes: "But they have not all obeyed the Good News ..." Judy, let's hold this thing together. Just as the people who received it for what it was and having received it, received peace from it, even as those people could tell what it was before it got there, so it is with those who refuse to receive for what it is.
 
jt: Bill, I don't see any justification at all in scripture for the belief that people know what the message is before it gets there. God uses people. Under the Old Covenant it was Prophets and today it is Teacher/Preachers. In fact the scriptures teach that "the world can not receive Him" (John 14:17); the disciples were familiar with Him because of His ministry through Jesus during His earthly ministry.  So He had been with them and would soon be IN them.(John 14:17)
 
They know before it gets to them, just exactly what it is.
 
jt: Do you have a chapter and verse as a foundation  for the above statement?
 
This is what Paul is saying: People who have been prepared to receive the Good News of Jesus Christ by the preparatory work and wooing of the Holy Spirit know before it gets to them that that Gospel is Good News, yet they refuse to receive it as such, and thus their refusal is most definitely in the face of irrefutable evidence -- yet they refuse to obey what they know to be true. And so to them it is received as BAD NEWS! They have rejected Jesus Christ -- and they KNOW IT. And it is that knowledge that will send them to hell -- unless of course they repent and acknowledge it for what it always was: the Good News of their salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord! Amen.  Bill  
 
jt: Bill this may be your thesis. However, scripture tells us that thes people have a spiritual problem ie: the god of this world has blinded the minds of the ones who don't believe - However, the gospel (or Good news if you like) is the power of God unto salvation for all those who WILL believe.  When God's Word is preached in balance and in context His Spirit is there to open the hearts of those who are willing to come to the light.  I know Calvin doesn't like to think we are free will agents - but Calvin obviously did not understand God's ways - if he had he would not have had a man burned at the stake.  judyt
 
jt: What is this Bill some kind of gnosticism?  God's Spirit anoints and works alongside God's Word - so "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel... (Rom 10:14-16)  judyt
 
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:07:15 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
This is an awesome statement. I hope everyone reads it and allows it to resonate. Bill 
Debbie wrote   >  When I said God sees the end from the beginning, I didn't mean foreknowledge. I meant that the person's whole life-direction is one. And by that I meant, if they reject the message after hearing, then they have already been saying no to whatever light/Spirit-preparation they have already received. If they accept it, they have already been saying yes.
 

From: Bill Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If your logic holds, then we had better be teaching people their babies went to hell. That might keep them from killing the rest of them.
 
Exactly. I was trying to point out the absurdity of it.
 
Why are you so convinced that it rests in the mystery of God seeing the end from the beginning? Way too Arminian for me -- you are still waiting to get people saved. I've got news for you: they are saved. That is the Good News: He is Jesus Christ. If a person persistently rejects that news unto death, she SHOULD have been struck in the head as a baby! But rest assured the responsibility for her subsequent rejection rests squarely and totally upon her own shoulders. Our heart bleeds for her, but she heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, and this under the tutelage of none other than the greatest teacher in the universe, the Spirit of God himself, and still rejected that news. What a tragedy! 
 
I am not an Arminian (not that there's anything wrong with that...). My position is actually the opposite of Arminianism. What I meant was not really all that different from what you said last time. When I said God sees the end from the beginning, I didn't mean foreknowledge. I meant that the person's whole life-direction is one. And by that I meant, if they reject the message after hearing, then they have already been saying no to whatever light/Spirit-preparation they have already received. If they accept it, they have already been saying yes. Which is pretty much what you said.    
 
But it is as great a tragedy to limp along under the weight of a gospel of a Savior, who has not saved anyone until each one completes in the right order a specific rite of initiation
I agree with you there. But I'm not satisfied with the "negative-option marketing" plan.
 
For the life of me, I don't get it.
What? My entire theology, based on one post? That's OK. Actually, I don't get it either half the time.  --Debbie
 
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whose Names are Written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Yes, there is that problem if you press it to the logical conclusion, isn't there? Same with the all-babies-go-to-heaven view. In that case, best kill your kid before s/he reaches the age of accountability, or at least ensure a good pervasive brain injury. But no; the Heard-Not can't lose by hearing, nor the child by understanding. I think it relates to your earlier post--God sees the end from the beginning. Also, everyone has some knowledge or experience to respond to. The response doesn't have to be propositional, nor intelligible to us--only intelligible to God. (Mind you, I don't think I've figured this out yet...)    
 
Debbie  
-----Original Message-----
From: ShieldsFamily [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:55 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whose Names are Written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Don't you believe that all mankind is included in the incarnation which makes them all headed for heaven whether or not they overcome anything. I underlined the portion of your statement which is a true representation of things I've said. The second part is not accurate and cannot be linked to what I actually believe and have stated. I am confident (and this because I have had to defend and clarify myself so many times) that I have written more about the potential of humans to lose their salvation, than anyone on this list. I do not damn people to hell, like, say, you do, but I have written many substantive words expressing the possibility of people rejecting Christ and damning themselves to hell. You know this, so why do you continue to misrepresent my position?

Bill 

 

Bill it appears to me that your theological construct forces one to believe that the worst thing you could do is to tell someone about Jesus Christ.  If they never hear about Jesus they are guaranteed a ticket to heaven. If they do hear about Him and reject Him, that is the only possible way they can be destined for Hell.  So why go forth and spread the gospel? It sounds like a terrible thing to do.  Izzy

 
 

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