[TruthTalk] The Nicene Creed and Truthtalk Members

[Jonathan Hughes]

Welcome to the forum Gregory.  You should know that Judy denies the Nicene Creed mostly based on bad exegesis on her part and a huge misunderstanding of the history behind the creed of all creeds.  Judy is also an Arian with a subtle split between God and Jesus.  She is vehement in denying the eternal Sonship of Christ (as are Terry, DavidM and sometimes Izzy) and also/therefore denies the Trinity – she does have some concept of the Godhead but not in the classical sense that Christians have believed as delivered by the apostles and church fathers.  In other words, Judy believes and practices many of the heresies that the Nicene Creed was developed for.  Although she has been asked three times for the statement of faith from her place of worship she refuses to send it (this is probably because of one or two reasons: one she may not attend a local assembly or two she knows that she is in deep conflict with it).  It is very difficult to get a hold of her theology and learn where it has been developed from.  Much of it is Calvinist (although she is completely unaware of this and has deep disdain for Calvin himself) and there are strains of covenant theology as well.  There is a deep hatred towards the Catholic Church which in her mind includes the church from the 2nd century forwards (in opposition to the church catholic).  She (as well as others on this forum) are against learning the Bible in the original languages and prefer the King James version. Attempts are finding out what the writer was trying to convey in the original languages are usually met with scorn.  She believes that humankind are mostly spirit beings and is deeply convinced that the Greek view (read non-Hebraic, non-biblical) of body, soul and spirit is Christian as well.  That being said, Judy knows her Bible better than most on this forum and will converse with you at length about almost anything; she will do her research.  She is also always sincere even when we sense that her tone is not.  Perhaps she is like the rest of us with our massive hodgepodge of beliefs.  If you check the archives there are a lot of posts on this matter of a number of people on this forum being outside of historical orthodoxy.  Those that are outside are awfully proud of it, wearing it as a badge of honor.  They will tell you that they put scripture first and in a way they do.  Unfortunately they put the Bible before Jesus Christ.  Without a proper hermeneutic (taking all things and subjecting them to the Person of Jesus Christ [including the scriptures]) they end up practicing religion instead of a relationship.   Let us note that by accuracy or precision in knowledge is not meant some narrow Biblicist way of thinking and speaking about God.  Accurate or precise knowledge of God is not gained by stringing together biblical statements but by allowing our thought to be informed and determined by the truth of God to which they direct us.  To regard biblical statements as divine assertions does not mean that they are immediately intelligible, for they have to be interpreted in the light of the truth to which they refer, and in accordance with which our interpretations of them must be tested.  Hence we have to think out for ourselves what they mean in the light of that reference.  This does not mean that we have to leave behind the guidance of the Holy Scriptures through which alone God’s revelation is mediated to us, but that we refuse to be content with reproducing the mere letter of the biblical statements in our determination to rest our thinking and speaking upon the truth of God himself who addresses us through those biblical statements.  This means that we have to decide what we ourselves say of the truth under the direction of the biblical statements, and how we are to formulate our statements in such a way that they are established as true through their adequacy to the truth itself.  This involves what Athanasius called a ‘freedom of religious discourse’ on the basis of the Holy Scriptures when we pass beyond what they literally say to the truth of God which they convey, and seek to express that as accurately and precisely as we can.  And we dare not do that except in the most cautious and reverent way and with much prayer. (T.F. Torrance, The Trinitarian Faith, pg. 57)   I have read your posts with interest Gregory.  You are a welcome addition to this dysfunctional family.  I do not post much anymore but hope to converse with you in the future.  One easy way to get me out of the woodwork is to mention the Nicene Creed J   Jonathan   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory A. Hession J.D. Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 5:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!   The council of Nicea was a multiyear assembly of nearly every bishop in the church, bathed in prayer, and intent on dealing with heresy which had attempted to demean the nature of Christ.  I assume they got it right.  Do you have some specific disagreements with some of its precepts?  It isn't scripture, so I can understand your impulse to be wary.   Gregory A. Hession J.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Springfield, Mass. ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Good News!   Can you be sure the Jesus of the apostles is the same Jesus as the Nicene Creed? jht   On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:28:27 -0500 "Gregory A. Hession J.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy:  I agree that we cannot have a mealy-mouthed, squishy, Barney the Dinosaur, We-are-the-World, Everything-Is-Beautiful Jesus.  Let's assume that I am referring to the full-orbed Jesus of the Scriptures, the Jesus of the Nicene Creed, begotten before all ages, God of God, light of true light, The Jesus testified to by the Apostles, martyrs, and saints in the church through the ages, and the Jesus who is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and to whom every knee will bow and every tongue confess he is Lord.   Good enuf?     On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:47:19 -0500 "Gregory A. Hession J.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:     Unity is the show of love DESPITE not saying the same thing in the theological details, because on the main issue of following Christ we are saying the same thing.   It is not a rational or scriptural goal to aspire to get everyone to agree with ones self.   The goal, rather, should be to live a life of grace and mercy in Christ: that is what is required.  Then, it won't matter if a brother disagrees, because we won't be in the frame of mind to be disagreeable about it.   I don't know that this is true Gregory; the question I have is "who is this Christ, who is Jesus?" He appears to be chameleon like amongst those who profess to be His disciples, and He is the main issue - would you agree?   He is the Truth and on this list there is little agreement about what truth consists of. He is the Way, you will hear all kinds of different ways on TT. He is the Life, what kind of life?  Physical or spiritual, sometimes it's hard to tell. The apostle Paul wrote to the church at Philippi "let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing" - this is the kind of unity we need - right now we are not all saying the same thing.   jht   In a message dated 1/15/2005 2:54:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Three hits Gregory - Unity will happen when we are all saying the same thing which unfortunately is not a reality right now.  We used to sing Ps 133 at a Church I went to.. Behold how good and how pleasant it is, for brethren to dwell together in unity... Amen!!   judyt   Huh???   We will never have unity based upon "all saying the same thing ...."   Unity is based upon each recognizing the servant/Master relationship and giving honor and space to that circumstance.  A practice of the principles of Romans 14  (esp. v 4) would solve nearly all of the ranker problems on this forum..   But that ain't going to happen either.    I could be wrong  ---   but probably not.  Jd     --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004