He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)
JESUS IS GOD
MARY HAD TWO HUSBANDS The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:268)
Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Kevin Deegan wrote:DAVEH: Then I misunderstood your post. Thank you for clarifying it, Kevin.
DAVEH: I'm changing the subject line to more accurately reflect the thread.
KD I never said Marriage was sinful.
DAVEH: Sometimes I have trouble following your thinking. Many times I do not even know if you are posting to me, or to others! I think it may be a reflection on my failing thought process as I age...... :-)What would lead you to this line of reasoning. I have reread this post several times and do not see where you got this.
DAVEH: Perhaps because you did not ask a question, and I'm too busy to counter every assertion you make.You do not comment on any of the Bible verses I posted, Why?
DAVEH: I wasn't looking for a debate, but rather trying to find out what you believe, and why you believe such. I think there is Biblical evidence (Rabbi) to suggest it would have been expected for Jesus to have married. A theologian said.....I said it was sinful to claim Jesus was married when all of the Biblical evidence points to NO The Bible says whatsoever is not of Faith is sin. I gave you a number of scriptures to show why Jesus could not be married, you chose not to comment on them.
A Presbyterian minister and professor at the Davis and Elkin College in West Virginia, U.S.A., wrote an article that Jesus must have been married. His article was immediately picked up by other religious newspapers, one of which is reproduced below:
ELKINS, W.Va. (Ap) -- Jesus may have been married and the father of children, according to a Presbyterian minister-professor at Davis and Elkins College. The Rev.Dr.William Phipps, writing in the current issue of the Journal of Ecumenical Studies said that failure to marry and reproduce was regarded as a serious sin in Biblical times. If Jesus had been a batchelor, the Rev.Dr.Phipps contends, the Bible would surely contain some record of his being criticized for it. He said Jesus probably wasn't married during the last three years of his life that are recorded in the New Testament but it's logical to infer that he had been married earlier and was a widower. The Rev.Dt.Phipps said that in Greek translations of the Bible there's no difference in the word for "wife" and "woman", and the Bible often mentions Jesus being with a woman. "Under Talmudic law, a man couldn't be considered righteous -- in fact, he couldn't even be considered a complete man -- if he didn't marry and have children," Dr.Phipps writes. "The Talmud asserts very strongly...that it's almost the same as committing murder to not reproduce (Asbury Park Evening Press, Sat., March 22, 1969; also the Christian Beacon, March 27, 1969).
........and again commented.......
A Presbyterian minister and professor at the Davis and Elkin College in West Virginia, U.S.A., wrote an article that Jesus must have been married. His article was immediately picked up by other religious newspapers, one of which is reproduced below:
ELKINS, W.Va. (Ap) -- Jesus may have been married and the father of children, according to a Presbyterian minister-professor at Davis and Elkins College. The Rev.Dr.William Phipps, writing in the current issue of the Journal of Ecumenical Studies said that failure to marry and reproduce was regarded as a serious sin in Biblical times. If Jesus had been a batchelor, the Rev.Dr.Phipps contends, the Bible would surely contain some record of his being criticized for it. He said Jesus probably wasn't married during the last three years of his life that are recorded in the New Testament but it's logical to infer that he had been married earlier and was a widower. The Rev.Dt.Phipps said that in Greek translations of the Bible there's no difference in the word for "wife" and "woman", and the Bible often mentions Jesus being with a woman. "Under Talmudic law, a man couldn't be considered righteous -- in fact, he couldn't even be considered a complete man -- if he didn't marry and have children," Dr.Phipps writes. "The Talmud asserts very strongly...that it's almost the same as committing murder to not reproduce (Asbury Park Evening Press, Sat., March 22, 1969; also the Christian Beacon, March 27, 1969).
..........Then there are the apocryphal accounts that lend credence.....
Recent manuscripts found in Qumran and other excavations have introduced further information to substantiate Christ's marriage. In the Gospel According to Thomas there are significant references to the marriage of Jesus:
Logion 22: "...They (the disciples) said to Him: Shall we then, being children, enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one (one flesh -- or marriage) and when you make the inner as the outer...and when you make the male and the female into a single one (married), so that the male will not be male and the female (not) be female,...then you shall enter (the Kingdom)".
Logion 114: "Simon Peter said to them: Let Mary go out from among us, because women are not worthy of the Life. Jesus said: See, I shall lead her, so that I will make her male (one in marriage) that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (The Gospel According to Thomas, p.57. Coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, 1959. The New Covenant Church has made a fresh translation of the Gospel of Thomas with prophetic commentary).
And in another apocryphal manuscript called the Gospel of Philip:
Logion 32: "There were three who walked with the Lord at all times, Mary his mother and (his) sister, and Magdelane, whom they called his consort (Consort = a husband or wife (The World Book Encyclopaedia Dictionary, 1966)). For Mary was (the name of) his sister, and his mother, and his consort."
Logion 55: "The Sophia whom they call barren is the mother of the angels. And the consort of (Christ is) Mary Magdalene. (The Lord loved Mary) more than (all) the disciples, and kissed her on her (mouth) often. The others too...they said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Saviour answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? (In the commentary of this book, Dr. Wilson quotes Peter as saying: "We know that the Saviour loved you more than other women" ((referring to Mary Magdalene). And he quotes Levi as saying: "He loved her more than us.")" (The Gospel of Philip, pp.35 & 39-40. Translated from the Coptic text, with an Introduction and Commentary by R.McL.Wilson, B.D., Ph.D., London, 1962.).
.........
DAVEH: Let's review some of the passages suggesting marriage is good for man......BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE The plain teachings of the scriptures on this matter reveal that to marry is OK and to NOT MARRY is OK. It is up to the individual. To not marry is a BETTER way for some They will be rewarded in the hereafter for giving up all for the Prize of Christ.
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone...... Gen 2:18
.......and......
Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 1Cor 11:11-12
.....and let's not forget that......
Marriage is honourable in all,...... Heb 13:4
.......and I'm sure you will not forget the command that a bishop must be.......
....the husband of one wife....... 1Tim 3:1
........do you suppose that would apply to Jesus as well, Kevin? :-)DAVEH: Perhaps the Bible is incomplete. I believe there are some apocryphal accounts suggesting such.Luke 10 had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
DAVEH: I'd appreciate how you believe in this matter, Kevin. Do you believe it would have been sinful for Jesus to have had children?FIRST of all it was the god of Mormonism who put A&E in a strait where they must sin. This is contrary to the NATURE of the God of the Holy Bible. Therefore they can not be the same God!SECOND It is just sinful to claim that he did have children. Jesus never sinned. Here are just a few reasons Why Jesus could not marry.Marriage was not disclosed as the Fathers will for the Messiah in the OTDAVEH: ??? Are you saying marriage in itself is sinful, Kevin? That almost sounds like you believe God created Adam and Eve to be sinful. I don't think I've heard such from non LDS people before. Am I understanding you correctly?
KD The LDS god created A&E to sin, that is one reason why we know he is not the Holy God of the Bible. Show me where marriage is in the plan for Jesus Christ. Many details were writtin down years before in the OT. Nowhere in the Holy Bible is there any evidence for Jesus being married.
DAVEH: Hmmmm......you are making it sound like marriage is not of God, and that it is sinful. But....I don't want to put words in your mouth. Do you believe marriage is ordained of God, Kevin?Many OT prophets were Single so they could devote themselves to GodIn Luke 9:23 Christ spoke, And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." By BIBLICAL definition you cannot be a disciple unless you forsake all. Matthew 19:27-29 Luke 14:26-33.
DAVEH: Are you suggesting that simply being married constitutes sinfulness..........and to properly follow Jesus, one should not be married, Kevin? Whew! I do hope I am misunderstanding your point, as that seems pretty peculiar to me.
NO to "BETTER" follow Jesus one should devote themselves to God and avoid the things of this world , but not all men can contain!
DAVEH: Rather than just take a single word snip of what was said, let's complete the thought......
HE WAS NOT AN INFIDELSince jesus had no place to lay His head Luke 9 "Son of man hath not where to lay his head."He could not have a wife & Child as that is a denial of the faith.1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.JESUS DID THE FATHERS WILL NOT HIS OWNJohn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.JESUS himself TAUGHT a EUNUCH LIFESTYLE (could he teach and not partake?) : MT 19 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
JESUS CARED FOR THE THINGS OF THE FATHER NOT THE THINGS of WORLD
Luke 2:49 I must be about my Father's business?
DAVEH: Did not the Lord command man to leave his parents and cleave unto his wife (Gen 2:24)? It doesn't strike me as something the Lord would command....IF marriage were sinful. Also.....don't you think the Lord placed A&E on the earth for the specific purpose of multiplying? If that were so, then why would you think having children would be sinful? I can only assume I am misunderstanding your position on this, Kevin. If you think having children is sinful, then it seems as though the Lord intends us to sin in that respect.
Read it careful He did not command ALL men I think Gen 2:24 says "A" Man
.........Shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
.......Do you consider this to be a commandment, Kevin? And.....do you suppose this command would apply to Jesus as well? If he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law.....would that not be a reasonable argument to suppose marriage would not be unlikely for our Saviour?
He also commanded them to leave Mother & Father to follow Him
DAVEH: I did not realize that. Sorry if I misconstrued your situation.Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Paul said "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. �I say therefore to the UNMARRIED and widows, It is good for them if they ABIDE even as I. �But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. � But I would have you without carefulness. HE THAT IS UNMARRIED CARETH FOR THE THINGS THAT BELONG TO THE LORD, how he may please the Lord: but he that is MARRIED careth for the things that are of the WORLD, how he may please his wife. �And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may ATTEND UPON THE LORD WITHOUT DISTRACTION." (I Corinthians 7:1,8,28,32-33)
Jesus fulfilled this He had No entanglements "No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 2 Timothy 2:4
HOW COULD HE HAVE A FAMILY & THEN: JESUS called people to leave their families, jobs, income, and even to sell all, give to the poor, and follow Him Matthew 4:18-22; 10:9-10; 19:21; Luke 9:57-61; 14:26-33
JESUS DID NOT BURN Paul taught that marriage was provided "if you cannot contain," and that "it is better to marry than to burn" I Corinthians 7:2,8-9.
JESUS CHOSE THE BEST Marriage is God�s acceptable state for those who have no power over their own will in sexual matters. Getting married is doing "well," while staying single is doing "better" I Corinthians 7:37-38
DAVEH: FTR.........I believe marriage is ordained of God. Most non-LDS marriages I've attended have included the words, what God has joined together, let no man put asunder, which leads me to believe that most Christians also believe marriage is of God. Your perspective on this rather surprises me, Kevin. Are you married? Hmmmm......now that I think about it, I believe you mentioned previously that you are not married. Is that by your will, or do you allow that you may choose that course in the future? IF you've remained unmarried because you feel it would be a distraction to your ministry....you must be very devoted to your cause!
I was a widower for a while, I have since remmaried
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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