Re: [TruthTalk] Prayer in Evangelism

[Dave Hansen]

Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   You have pulled this conversation way off track. DAVEH:  Really?!?!?!   I thought I was trying to keep it on track.  You were the one who wanted to know the best way to evangelize Mormons.  Now you don't seem to appreciate my answer....   So let me ask you, Perry......Do you think using bullhorns and waving underwear is more important than humble prayer?  That is the nature of your original question, isn't it? You have not addressed the point that you initially made, which I countered. You brought up bullhorns and street preachers, I did not. DAVEH:    My point exactly, Perry.  Why are so concerned that there should be a passage in the Bible about prayer being an important part of evangelizing, but yet you don't seem concerned that there is not one justifying bullhorns?  Don't you think you should be grilling the street preachers who use bullhorns rather than criticize those who use prayer to evangelize? Let me try to get this thing back on track here. Summarizing, I asked how Mormons could best be evangelized. You said "praying". DAVEH:  Do you sincerely disagree, Perry??? I asked you to show me some scripture that says that praying is how to bring people to faith. You responded with a verse about praying for wisdom. It had the word "pray" in it, so perhaps you thought it answered the question. DAVEH:  LOL.....Come on Perry.  You are the guy who is seeking wisdom about how to evangelize Mormons.  What better passage describes those who lack wisdom, than the one I quoted!  BTW.....Apparently, you failed to read Js 1:5...... If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. .......Nowhere was the word "pray" in it as you presumed above.  In fact, you can read the entire chapter and not find the word "pray".  If I had done that, Perry, would you have accused me of proof texting.....?   ;-) I said that, while praying was good, that the BIble does not say that is how people come to faith. Romans 10 clearly tells how people come to faith...by preaching. You did not respond to this. DAVEH:  Perry, I'm not trying to preach the Bible to you.  I suspect you know the Bible far better than I do, so why would you seek Bible advice from me?  Instead, you were seeking advice on how to evangelize Mormons, and I was merely trying to explain it in a way you would understand. This answer I am looking for goes something like, "Gee, Perry, you are right. Paul tells us right there in Romans 10 that we are to preach the gospel to bring people to faith. DAVEH:   See Perry....you do know the Bible better than me! And, you are also right in that I can find no scripture that says people are brought to faith by praying for them." But instead you have dodged these issues by quoting a non-relevant Bible verse, DAVEH:  For those who lack wisdom, I don't think it is so non-relevant as you might want to presume, Perry.   If you lack wisdom as to how to evangelize Mormons, then the advise found in JAMES 1:5......IS RELEVANT TO YOUR NEEDS. as well as some JS musings, DAVEH:   I sincerely believe the Lord said....... Be thou humble; and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers.   D&C 112:10 .......Now Perry, if you think humility is a vain trait to practice when seeking help from the Lord, that is your problem.  Whether JS said it, or the Lord said it....I think it is pretty good advice.  I can't imagine why you would disagree, but I'm sure you will continue doing so just because it came from LDS Scripture.  If anybody wants to evangelize Mormons without humbly seeking the Lord's help, I suppose they will just think turning up the volume on their bullhorns and waving the underwear a bit more will do the job.  And when they do, I suspect a lot of Mormons will just think that they project in volume, what they lack in content. and brought up unrelated issues. If you have found no scripture stating that praying for people is what brings them to faith, say so! If you agree with what Paul says about preaching in Romans 10 bringing people to faith, say so. If you disagree with Paul, tell me why. Please don't waste my time with red herrings and smoke screens. If you need it in the form of interrogatives, as you have stated you need in the past, then here are the quesions: DAVEH:  I think you are continuing to miss my point, Perry.  LDS folks do not feel the need for confirmation from the Bible that prayer is a necessary component of evangelizing.  We have other sources of Scripture (D&C 112:10 is the example I quoted above) that advise us of the need for humility when seeking the Lord's help in sharing the gospel.  While such may not be explicitly explained by the Bible, it does not mean that we do not recognize the message of the Bible--that Christian behavior implies a measured amount of humility and reverence for the gospel we preach.   So....that is how and why we preach as we do.  It is not our intent to try to out shout those we seek to convert, but rather that we endeavor to seek out those who the Lord has prepared to hear our message.  That is why I thought the passage I quoted about seeking the Lord's advice in humble prayer is so pertinent to our discussion.     As you know, like thinking tends to attract, and opposite thoughts/actions tend to repel.  So when you asked Blaine the best way to evangelize LDS folks, you apparently did not like my answer to seek help from the Lord through prayer.  So, I will give you another answer that is a little more secular...... simply avoid doing things that LDS folks find repulsive.  It seems to me that if you want to discuss theological stuff with a Mormon, it is best discuss the gospel with them in a manner with which they feel comfortable and in an atmosphere that is not combative or hostile.  In doing so, you might even be surprised to find the LDS folks joining you in prayer before such a discussion commences.     For instance....I'm willing to chat with you and Kevin about gospel principles all day long (at least until the wee hours of the morning, when I have to get some sleep!), but when either of you comes across as using the bull horn approach to get my attention....I feel compelled to avoid meeting you at that level, as it seems so insincere and foreign to my way of thinking the gospel should be discussed.  In short, I just don't feel comfortable listening to somebody who is shouting at me, nor do I figure the guy doing all the shouting is going to be listening to either me or the Spirit.....so, why should I bother to respond. 1. Do you know of anywhere in the Bible where it states that praying for people is what brings them to faith? 2. Do you agreee with Paul in Romans 10, that faith comes by hearing, and hearnig by the the Word of God, and that the Word of God is heard via preachers, and that preachers are sent for that purpose? DAVEH:  The answer to both your above questions has nothing to do with how to chat with LDS folks about religion.  Those are restrictions YOU've apparently placed on those who think like you, Perry.  If you think you need a Bible passage to justify praying for the Spirit of God to help you in evangelizing Mormons, you may spend a long time looking for something that isn't explicitly spelled out to your satisfaction.  I think that is one of the problems the Pharisees had.....they wanted everything spelled out in black and white, and couldn't handle the truth as told by Jesus in his parables.  Even if what you are asking is not explicitly detailed in the Bible.....doesn't a message of humility and prayer in seeking the help of the Lord in whatever righteous thing you do permeate that Sacred Book?      BTW.......In response to your second question, I might suggest that if preachers have the volume turned up too loud, the message may not be heard.  I've often thought that is why reverence is important when listening for the quiet voice of the Spirit.  Perhaps those who are not humble enough to follow it, are too loud to hear it. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer in Evangelism Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:39:13 -0800 DAVEH:  I've changed the subject line to more accurately reflect the topic.... Charles Perry Locke wrote: Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   Please show me the scriptures that says one comes to faith by praying for them. DAVEH:  Why do you need that any more than you need a scripture from those street preachers who think they should use a bull horn to preach, Perry? Using voice amplification is normal in environments with high background noise, and I don't consider that either a moral or ethical issue. DAVEH:  You missed the point.  Why do you want me to provide a scriptural reference for prayer, yet you don't seem to need one for bullhorns?  If you think bullhorns are necessary to preach without Biblical support, and prayer is not....that is your prerogative.  Just turn up the gain control, and ignore the quiet voice from within. I am not saying this does not or cannot happen, I just would like some references. DAVEH:  OK.   For those who lack an understanding of how to preach...... Thanks for that comment, Dave. DAVEH:  You are welcome, Perry.  It does make me wonder why you and Kevin would seek the advice of a tired old Mormon boy to learn how to preach though. *If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. *  Js 1:5 Okay, so if you want wisdom, pray for it...how does that demonstrate that prayer brings people to faith? DAVEH:   If you don't think prayer will help bring people to faith, then don't do it, Perry.  LDS folks use prayer to help them find those who are wanting, needing and seeking faith.  If you don't think it would be appropriate for street preachers to use LDS methods of evangelism, that's OK with me. .......Furthermore, the Lord has also suggested it is important to ....... **Be thou humble; and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers.**    D&C 112:10 Which Lord, mine or yours? Oh, that comes fromt he D&C...you mean your lord. Mine didn't say that. JS did. DAVEH:   Ohhhhhhhhh.......yeah, I hadn't considered you think that way, Perry.  Maybe it doesn't apply to street preachers, eh..... .......So, I ponder how effective any preacher can be if they fail to adopt a stance of humility in their approach. You have not answered my request for a scriptural reference on the topic, and have totally dodged the scripture reference I gave to preaching. If you dont have a direct answer, just say so. It's easy... DAVEH:   If you don't like the scriptures I offered inferring prayer is a useful tool, or the advice of how LDS folks use prayer to evangelize......no problem, Perry.  Just continue on preaching as you think is appropriate.  Who am I to argue with your methods.....   It just saddens me that there may be non Christian folks who find the antics of some street preachers to not be very appealing, causing them to view Christianity in a skewed perspective. Ignorance -> Preacher -> Hearing -> Word of God -> Faith. That is what street preachers do. I am sure they pray, too, but the Bible says to preach the Word of God. DAVEH:   I guess that's where I am missing the message, Perry.  Too often it seems that the WofG is obscured by the antics. According to Romans 10, the gospel is to be preached to bring peopel to faith. Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel, but that is not what he claims brings them to faith: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Stirring up the fallow ground-used to be What is a Ch ristian? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:56:17 -0800 DAVEH:   Prayer..... Kevin Deegan wrote: Good question! */Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:     Blaine, please tell us what evangelical approach would work best with     Mormons, especially at the General Conference. Help us out here.     Thanks,     Perry <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.