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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:39
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] A&E &
Salvation
"Protestants" as well as RCs believe that Jesus
was/is fully God and fully human, two natures in one
person.
DAVEH: We believe similarly, though I do not
believe he became exalted until after his
resurrection.
When you say that Protestants believe
Jesus was fully God, there must be some qualification since you apparently
believe that one cannot see God. Yet, many saw Jesus. How is
that reconciled in Protestantism, Bill?
BT:
Well, I don't think anyone is able to see spirit, even when that
Spirit is God. When Jesus said that those who had see him had seen his father,
he was speaking about his character being an exact representation and
reflection of that of his Father. Hebrews 1:3 says, "And He is the radiance of
His glory and the exact representation of His nature, ..." The Greek word
for "exact representation" here is character.
Throughout his tenure on earth the divine
nature worked in unison with the human nature toward a perfect union:
"though he was Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he
suffered; and having been perfected, he became the author of eternal
salvation to all who obey him" (Heb 5.8-9).
DAVEH: That sounds somewhat legalistic.
I've been led to believe that Protestants believe they can be saved without
obedience. Do you have a way to reconcile that seeming
contradiction?
BT:
I guess we'll have to take that one up with the Holy Spirit, Dave.
:>) I will say that obedience does not have to be legalistic, although it
is often presented as such by well-meaning "protestants."
When Jesus breathed his last on the
cross, the two natures were fully reconciled within the one person of
Christ; no longer was there any tension between God and "man": "Father, into
your hands I commit my spirit"; "for God was in Christ reconciling the world
to himself" (Luk 23.46; 2Cor 5.19).
DAVEH: From my perspective, I would think that
happened when his resurrected body ascended to his Father in Heaven.
When Jesus said......
......Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
to my Father:.... Jn 20:17
......it seems like
something distinctly divine happened to him upon his ascension. Prior to
that event, he requested no physical contact. Yet subsequent to the
ascension, he welcomed physical contact as evidenced by his
invitation........
.......handle me and
see..... Lk 24:39
......to be touched by his
disciples. So, Bill.......do you recognize any difference between the
mortal God (Jesus in a flesh and blood state), and God (Jesus in a body of
flesh and bone) after his ascension?
BT: The idea that Jesus was attempting to convey is something on the
order of Do not cling to me; for he had yet to go to be with his
Father, whereupon he would send them the Holy Spirit -- for he had
promised to send his Spirit upon his ascension: " Most assuredly, I say
to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and
greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. ... And I
will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide
with you forever --" Far greater was it to have his Spirit
dwelling in them than it would be for them to have only the
ability to follow by his example if he were to remain in their presence.
You say, "Yet subsequent to the ascension, he
welcomed physical contact as evidenced by his invitation." I would argue that this all happened subsepuent to the
reserection, but prior to the ascension, both the John 20.17 account and the
Luke 24.39 account. Am I missing something here? In Luke 24.39 Jesus tells his
disciples to touch him and feel him to prove to them that they were not seeing
a spirit, in this case conveying the idea of ghost. He wanted them to know it
was really him.
Take care, my friend. I am off to my son's
regional wrestling tournament. Go Michael!
Bill
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:03 AM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please
In a message dated 2/4/2005 11:46:46 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
DAVEH: Yes, John. I understand that you see
it that way. But why? Why do you think Jesus represents the
Son of Mankind? I'm not sure that makes any sense to me. I
view Jesus as being a divine being, a deity from before the world was
created. Do you not believe likewise? Isn't that why he was
called the Son of God? Do you think he became less than the Son of
God, or less than divine when he was on the earth? It seems to me
that for Protestants to consider him reduced to mankind status would be
contrary to his divine authorship. In fact, that's the charge many
have leveled against LDS theology, that we have reduced God to mankind
status in effect. So it somewhat surprises me that you would
suggest such, JD.
I will take some time and
try to give thoughtful answer. I will tell you that I
believe that He has always been both the Son of Man and the Son of
God .... and as such, He is both mankind's
represenative, if you will, and
God's. DAVEH:
OK. I understand your perspective on that. Though I'm not
sure why it is relevant to salvation from a Protestant's perspective.
Would anything be different IF he had not represented mankind?
IOW.....Could Jesus have saved mankind in any other way? Being crucified
as he was was pretty brutal even for God. Why (from a Protestant's
perspective) could the Lord devised another plan of salvation prior to A&E
falling? From my perspective, that Jesus was our Redeemer before the
earth was even formed presupposes God expected A&E to fall, and proceeded
with the creation anyway. To me....that is very significant. Do
you recognize any particular importance to the plan of salvation unfolding as
it did? IOW....Do you believe God intended A&E to fall?
His was a ministry of reconcilation. I
can't imagine "reconciliation" as having any importance whatsoever if did
not or does not include the bringing together of man and God in His
[Christ's} Continuing Existence.
DAVEH:
As you must know, LDS theology takes that a step further by suggesting Jesus
was showing us the way we could become perfect, as is God. IOW....we can
become one with God.
The study will be for my own good -- but I
will be happy to share it with you.
DAVEH:
Thanx John.....I'll look forward to your comments.
Have a good evening. And go Pats.
DAVEH: Apparently, your prayers have been
answered! :-)
JD
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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