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jt: Do you believe the first
Adam was "something other than human" also?
Hi Judy,
I take it you are speaking of the first
Adam in his pre-fallen state. And so, the answer is, No, I do not believe
he was something other than human -- neither do I believe that Adam needed
"saved" prior to the fall.
But he did after it. And so did all
humanity after the fall.
And that is the humanity Christ came to
save: i.e., fallen humanity. To have assumed a nature other than the one he came
to save would be to leave that which was fallen untouched and unredeemed, still
in its sin. That is what the early church meant when it said things like the
unassumed is unsaved and that which was not taken up in Christ was not saved. In
fact, I'll share several quotes with you from early
Christians.
Gregory Nazianzen
wrote,
The unassumed is the unhealed; but what
is united to Christ is saved. If only half of Adam fell, then what Christ
assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it
must be united to the whole nature of him who was begotten, and so be saved as
a whole. (Ep.,101; cf. Or., 1.23;
22.13)
And in a similar statement Gregory
Nyssen wrote,
He who came for this cause, that
he might seek and save that which was lost (i.e., what the shepherd in the
parable calls the sheep), both finds that which is lost, and carries home on
his shoulder the whole sheep, not just the fleece, that he might make the man
of God complete, united to God in body and soul. And thus he who was in all
points tempted as we are yet without sin, left no part of our nature which he
did not take up into himself. (Anter. con. Eun., Jaeger, 2. pg.
386)
And in another Basil argued,
If Christ had not come in our
flesh, he could not have slain sin in the flesh and restored and reunited to
God the humanity which fell in Adam and became alienated from God.
(Ep., 261.2)
And years earlier it was Athanasius
who wrote,
It was impossible to pay one
thing as a ransom in exchange for a different thing; on the contrary, he gave
body for body and soul for soul and complete existence for the whole man. This
is the reconciling exchange of Christ. (Con. Apol.,
1.17)
And while you may not respect these
guys, and you may not give what they say any bearing in your interpretive
framework, you should know that when you go against them, you are cutting
against your own heritage as a Christian. These are the great defenders of our
Faith, upon whose statements the church universal was made able to stand in
orthodoxy against the heresies of both the Arians and the Apollinarians.
And you should know this, too,
Judy, that when you reject this teaching, it is you who takes the side of
the heterodox and not they; and it is they who stand in the stream of classic
orthodoxy and not you. This
may not concern you, I know -- but it should.
_______________________________________________________________
Judy wrote
> We are not born
into this world "alive to God" Bill, in fact we are dead in trespasses and sin
(see Eph 2)
The language to which you refer is
metaphorical, Judy, and is not to be taken in your dualistic frame of
reference. Again, it was not until Augustine that Christians began to think in
the dichotomous terms of physical life in spiritual death.
Jesus was never ever "dead in trespasses and sin" other
than during that 3hrs on the cross. Yes he defeated principalities and
powers but there are many who "believe" the good news who are still just as
bound by them as they were before they believed. So why is
that?
They probably believe something
similar to what you are teaching, Judy. Hence, they are in bondage because they
believe in something less than the truth (I hope that's I nice way of putting
it). But when one believes the good news of his salvation and receives the Holy
Spirit, that person has received the Truth, and that truth makes him free,
and he does not return to the indwelt bondages of his prior beliefs, when he
lived in the lies of this world.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:06
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Original
Sin
jt: Yes - I agree with you -
Jesus was born with a human spirit inside his human body like all humans
have. The difference between him and the rest of us is that he was born
with a human spirit that was alive to God (with no breach) whereas ours was
dead. Jesus walked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit - We are born void of
the Spirit (which is something the world can not receive) but we do
receive "a measure" when we are born again or born of the spirit
(and this is when our human spirit passes from death to life). Any
problems?
bt: Yes, big problems. You are making Jesus something other than human when you insist that he was
equipped with things in his humanity that we are not in ours (i.e., a spirit
that was alive to God whereas ours was dead), and then equip us with something in our humanity that he did not experience in his own person (i.e., a
nature subject to the fall).
jt: Do you believe the
first Adam was "something other than human" also? He had a human spirit
that was alive to God since he fellowshipped with Him in the cool of the
day. What I am saying is that Jesus had the same human nature as the
first Adam (before the fall) - and that he overcame in his personal life the
areas where the first Adam fell (during the temptation in the wilderness). Yes
Jesus did experience our fallenness along with every sin you can and
cannot imagine during those hours of darkness on the cross and this is the
ONLY time he was separated from the Father ever - and this because of
us.
Now humanity is a new creation in
Christ's resurrection, born from above. And we receive the Holy
Spirit if and when we believe the good news of our
salvation.
jt: Not "humanity" per
se. Only those who receive Him receive the POWER TO BECOME a son of
God. Just believing won't do much - because even the devils believe and
tremble - Also remember Jesus' prayer in John 17? He wasn't praying for the
world, only the ones God had given to him and those who would believe through
them.
Jesus was alive to the things of God and
so are we (because he defeated
the powers which kept us in bondage), and if and when we
stop believing the lies of this world and its father and believe instead
in the good news of our salvation, we are able to
respond to our Father in heaven, because he sends us the Spirit of Christ with
which to guide us.
jt: We are not born into
this world "alive to God" Bill, in fact we are dead in trespasses and sin (see
Eph 2) Jesus was never ever "dead in trespasses and sin" other than
during that 3hrs on the cross. Yes he defeated principalities and powers
but there are many who "believe" the good news who are still just as bound by
them as they were before they believed. So why is
that?
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