jt: People who have been made free in Christ no
longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price for
our sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when we
come to Him with our whole heart.
Judy, do you live your life completely free of
temptation? If not, then do you deny that it is the things that you are
most inclined towards that are now your greatest source of temptation?
Can one be tempted by something she has no inclination to do? Of course not!
jt: I'm not saying that I am never
tempted Bill or that I am not dealing with my own family stuff - that's just a
fact of life and God allows us to be tested. He also allows Satan to come
periodically to check our foundation so we are forewarned. But I
don't believe that after a genuine conversion God leaves anyone with
uncontrollable tendencies (unless they want them).
Jesus says temptation begins within us. If you
didn't have the internal desire, the "temptation" could not attract you. Jesus
said, "For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts,
sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit,
eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All
these vile things come form within" (Mar 7.21-23. Emphasis
mine).
jt: Basically
correct. However, when we are walking in the New Covenant
promise we should have a new heart of flesh with God's Law written in it.
(Jer 31:33) along with the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome.
This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 and the answer in Romans
8:1b....
And James says there is an army of evil
desires within you: "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they
come from your desires that battle within you?" (Jam 4.1).
jt: In the 4th Chapter James is
speaking to ppl who are walking after the flesh rather than after the Spirit
and in Vs.4. he addresses them as spiritual adulterers and
adultresses - friends with the world and enemies of God. These are not
ppl who have held on to their freedom in Christ - they need to
repent.
To say that people who have been made free in
Christ no longer have "those tendencies," is to say that they no longer suffer
temptation. Are you willing to go this far? Do you have a tendency to be
prideful? Do you tend toward foolishness? Are you quarrelsome? Do you tend
toward any of these things?
jt: I don't believe that people who
are free in Christ no longer suffer temptation. Scripture teaches that there is no
temptation that is not common to man - but we are never tempted beyond what we
are able to bear and with the temptation God makes a way of
escape.
The tendency of "gay types" towards sexual
immorality comes from the same source as your tendencies; they come from
within them. And like you, if they are believers in Christ, they
no longer have to give in to those desires, but to say that because
they have been made free in Christ, they must no longer be tempted,
is wrong. I hope you will reconsider your statement. Bill
jt: I don't see a problem with
my statement Bill - rather I see a contradiction with what you teach because
if this problem was assumed or whatever the word you use is - through the
incarnation then why isn't it healed? In fact why isn't anything
healed? Why is the divorce rate and sickness in the Church as bad as it
is out there in the world?
My belief is that
Salvation is a walk or grace in which God does not free us from
everything instantly because without a little maturity we would not be
strong enough to hold the ground and resist the enemy - However, we
are freed from enough so that for the most part we have have victory in our
daily lives (when keeping our eyes on Jesus) and I have seen Him deliver
ppl from some heavy duty addictions (like homosexuality) immediately to
encourage and give them a good start. But we have to want God more than
we want our sin to stay delivered. I have a friend who was instantly
set free from years and years of addiction to tobacco and she was a very
heavy smoker. judyt
Bill Taylor wrote:
Bill, there is no question that we can apply the
word perverts to homos. They practice sexual perversion. It takes a
humble man to agree with God, even when that doesn't sound politically
correct or "nice". Iz
Where is this "humble man" who
agrees with God? In John's address he said that he was also speaking of
people who have those tendencies but are not acting on
them. That is not perversion, Izzy -- it may even be righteousness:
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the
Spirit of our God" (1Cor 6.11).
jt: People who have been made free in Christ no
longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price for our
sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when we come
to Him with our whole heart.
To lump people like this in with the "perverts," and call them all a
"filty (sic) disgusting bunch," speaks far more truth into the perversion of your own nature than it does theirs.
Humility hardly covers it. Bill
jt: Nothing wrong with calling something what it is
and hating the sin but being willing to love the sinner and help them
to separate themselves from it. I appreciate Terry's blunt way of
putting things because it shakes one out of lethargy and makes us take
a hard look. There is so much perversion all around us these days that
we are in danger of becoming comfortable with it. It comes right
into our living rooms on the TV and doesn't always look like what Terry
described in the prisons although it's all the same under the
surface. Satan comes as an angel of light and he can make bitter look
sweet and darkness appear to be light. Has anyone seen that
transexual golfer? Many believe the antichrist will be homosexual
also because of the passage in Daniel that says "Neither shall he
regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god
for he shall magnify himself above all" - This type of arrogance is
evident in the homosexual community. judyt
