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Yes, indeed, "aspersions" is the word I was looking
for. Thanks.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:29
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
Judy:'dispersions' might well apply to my
character but, 'aspersions' might be the word sought hereunder.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 06, 2005 13:16
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
You are probably right, Lance. Judy, I should
not have cast dispersions upon your character. You may very well be doing
the best you are able with what you have been given. No one should ask for
more than that.
My apologies,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 9:05
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
Bt says of Jt 'the lengths you will travel to
save face'. IMO nothing of the sort is going on here. IMO whenever Jt
speaks she does so from her heart, mind and, as she sees it, under the
tutelage of the Holy Spirit. IMO this is why, Bill, MOST of your
interaction with Jt, though well intended and, IMO, superb in it's
content, is 'time well wasted' (comedy channel promo)
I'm sorry about the run-on sentences but I
believe you catch my drift. If you don't then, ask for
clarification.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 06, 2005 10:47
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led
or Being Driven
Judy charges >
So you have determined to change Matthew and Luke so that
they line up with your interpretation of Ekballo in Mark
Bill?
It's not my interpretation which ought to
concern you, Judy. In your case, it is yours; in fact, the following is
a great case in point:
Judy writes > What
about these (same word) - is the meaning here "forced and
compelled" as well? - note they are sent into not cast
out of...
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest that he will send forth
laborers into his harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break
and smoking flax shall he not quench till he send
forth judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest, that he would send forth
laborers into his harvest.
My, O my, the lengths you will travel to save face! Yup, they were
sent forth into something else, no doubt about it -- and with the same
word certain sailors, fearing shipwreck, "cast
out the wheat into
the sea." And so I ask you, what does "forth" mean, here, if not OUT --
send "out" laborers into the harvest, etc. "And Jesus said, Are ye
also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that
whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is
cast out
into the draught?" (Mat 15.16-17) --
Perhaps as good a place as any to end our conversation,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 4:24
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being
Led or Being Driven
But you are not
Bill? You still want to believe that the Holy Spirit drives even
though there are two witnesses against one
(supposed)? No wonder things become so complicated....
jt
Whatever, Judy. The truth
is, I don't look at it in terms of one
being "against" the other -- whether supposedly or not.
I told you this already.
But these words are in
opposition Bill (if you insist that "send forth" means doing
something under the force of compulsion), and this is not God's way
nor is it the way His Holy Spirit operates. When Mary was
chosen for the incarnation this was not forced upon her without her
consent; (see Luke 1:38) the angel waited for her to
accept.
Luke 4:1 says "And Jesus
being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by
the Spirit into the wilderness." Would you consider "sent forth
under the Spirit's annointing?"
What I am doing is looking at the
words themselves and determining their range of usage, then
translating them in a way which preserves that usage without
pitting them against each other. Whether it is casting demons out of sinners, or
throwing heirs out of vineyards, the thrust of
ekballo places its activity and power in a source
other than its subject. The "send out" of
this word is therefore also in
the power of another. In the case of this
verse, it is in the power of the Holy
Spirit; hence, Jesus was "compelled" by
the Spirit to enter the wilderness.
What about these (same word) - is the
meaning here "forced and compelled" as well? - note they are
sent into not cast out
of...
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest that he will send forth
laborers into his
harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not
break and smoking flax shall he not quench till he
send forth judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the Lord of
the harvest, that he would send
forth laborers into
his harvest.
I wish you were able to see this. Just
because two of the Gospels use a different word, that in it itself
does not negate your responsibility as either a
translator or an interpreter of this word to honor its
definition and treat it accordingly.
jt: I understand Bill (we
are warned not to add or take away from what has been written)
so I treat this very seriously. However, I don't see any wisdom
in forcing Matthew
and Luke to conform to Mark since all three report on the
same incident and were inspired by the same Holy Spirit - and
we also have the Spirit to help us apprehend truth so
that we are not entirely beholden to Greek words.
If harmony is what you seek, you should nonetheless respect the thrust of
the more forceful ekballo
and translate the others in a way
that preserves its thrust, and you should
do this while staying within their common range of usage
-- hence, the Spirit "brought" him to the wilderness.
jt: I'm wondering if you
have a basic underlying Calvinistic bent Bill because the root of
this conflict lies in the nature and character of God
who allows us to be
tested but never compels or forces anything on us so that when we
are judged it will be for our own choices, not His.
As believers being led by
God's Spirit is what we are supposed to be about daily and it is
something one must do willingly just like Jesus our Master who
delighted to do the will of the Father. If the Holy
Spirit was going to do any strong arming surely it would have
been in the garden of
Gethsemane because He really did have a struggle with that
one..
The "mystery" is solved for me,
too. Bill
jt: So you have
determined to change Matthew and Luke so that they line up with
your interpretation of Ekballo in Mark Bill?
judyt
But you are not Bill? You still
want to believe that the Holy Spirit drives even though there are
two
witnesses against one (supposed)?
No wonder things become so complicated.... jt
Okay, Judy, it sounds as though you
are convinced. Bill
Are we now on the "same page"
Bill? When was Jesus ever "driven" to
do anything?
judyt
Judy, your problem is not with
me. Yours is to reconcile two
very different words from Scripture: "drive" and "lead" -- get the picture?
Bill I've never had a problem with
scripture and you are the one who
insists that Jesus was literally "driven" to the wilderness
(from one gospel) when two
others use the word led.
As of yet you really haven't done much to "harmonize"
the two; all you have only insisted (contrary to
its definition) that "ekballo"
doesn't really mean force or drive out, expel, exclude,
reject, or compel.
Actually it is three - and
the reason for this is because in my experience so far
God's Word has never been contradictory and I don't
believe that this is a
first....
I don't understand how you can feel justified in doing this,
but I often have difficulties making sense of the things you
say. I do agree with you that Mark had "a more forceful
style" than Luke -- he demonstrates this throughout his
Gospel -- but I would like to ask you why the Holy Spirit would inspire him to say
that Jesus was driven (a word with the
thrust of being forced against one's will)
into the wilderness, if in fact he was actually
volitionally led there like Luke's Gospel is translated to
state? Please answer this question for me, as I am very
interested.
Both Matthew and Luke use the word
"led" Bill. IMO the problem comes from trying to
interpret scripture solely by the
use of Greek words. Ekballo does
not only mean what you have
noted above, it is also used with the idea of
"sending forth" as in
ministry. Look at how this word is used elsewhere in the gospels:
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the
Lord of the harvest that he will send
forth laborers into his
harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he
not break and smoking flax shall he not quench till he
send forth
judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the
Lord of the harvest, that he would send
forth laborers into his
harvest.
Again, if what you are seeking to do is to harmonize
the two accounts, then the way to do it is to translate Luke's word "ageto" as
brought -- the Spirit brought him to the wilderness.
This word ageto can also be translated to imply the
use of force, such as lead away, arrest, take into
custody (see Mar 13.11). And so, if it is harmony that
you seek, then it is Luke's word which
needs to be translated in a way which conveys the forceful
tone of Mark's ekballo -- not the other way
around: unless you can explain to me how one
can force a willing accomplice.
Bill
Once again Bill it is
three accounts - two of them say
"led", and one uses the word
Ekballo. To say this means "driven" would be against God's
nature and His Word. A&E were driven from the garden in
judgment but God does not ever drive or force anyone to
do His will; if we will not serve Him willingly, he leaves
us to our own devices. The prophet wrote about Jesus "Lo I
come in the volume of the book it is written of me, I
delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, they law is within my
heart" (Ps 40:7, Heb 10:7). Being sent forth is
something
one is in agreement with and
acts upon willingly (such as ministry teams and being led by
the Holy Spirit). Jesus sent forth the 12 as well as
the 70 - There is no record that he ever drove anyone or
forced them to do anything.
It is unfortunate that the translators did not use
"sent forth" rather than
"driveth". The mystery is
solved for me. judyt
This is a good example of the
principle that from the mouths of "two or more
witnesses" let every
word be established. I was
remiss in not doing more homework when we were discussing
this.
Both Luke and Matthew say "Jesus
was led" - only Mark uses the word "driven" in the KJV.
The
NASB translates it as "impelled"
and has a note saying that **this is because of Mark's
more
forceful style.
Are we now on the "same page"
Bill? When was Jesus ever "driven" to do
anything? They
couldn't even throw Him off the
brow of the cliff in their wrath? Noone
took His life and the
Prince of this World had nothing
in Him. judyt
Say Bill,
In my reading this a.m. I note
that Luke 4:1 says "And Jesus being full of the
Holy Ghost returned
from Jordan, and
was LED by the Spirit into the
wilderness" (Luke 4:1)
So what do you think?
Which is it that harmonizes
with the rest of scripture "being driven or
being led?"
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