Re: [TruthTalk] Legalism

[Bill Taylor]

John writes   >   In Hebrews 10.16ff, there is a presumption by Divine revelation  --   that sin is only forgiven in the offering of sacrifice.  We do not catch the importance of this fact.   ONLY IN THE OFFERING OF A SACRIFICE IS THERE TO BE FORGIVENESS.   That is why sacrifice has been with us from the beginning, post-garden.    When Jeremiah predicts that "....I will remember their sins no more,"  he was, in fact, speaking of the sacrifice that was offered once and for all time:   "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"  (10:14).   Confession does not secure forgiveness.  Prayer does not.   Repentance does not   ---------------   these are presented to us in scripture as substitutes for sacrificial offering.   "Now where there is forgiveness of these things  (full and completed), there is no longer any offering for us"  (10:18).   John, this is really good. I don't know if I would call confession, prayer, and repentance "substitutes" for sacrificial offering, but I certainly understand what you are attempting to convey. I notice something in your use of Heb 10.14 that may even strengthen your case. The word for "He has perfected" (teteleioken) is a perfect active indicative 3rd person singular, a verb which describes a completed aspect*; but the word for "those who are sanctified" (hagiazomenous) is a present passive participle, the voice of which is not reflected in the translation you are using. Hence this verse should probably read something like "by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Now think of this: the "forgiveness" of verse 18 is as definite and complete as the "one offering" of verse 14 (as you have stated -- thus the cessation of sacrificial offerings), and this because that one offering is Jesus Christ, he who has perfected forever those who are in the process of being sanctified.   Here's the point, John (and I know you agree with this), forgiveness does not ebb and flow depending upon where we are in the process of sanctification. Prayer, confession, and repentance, while important, speak not to whether we are forgiven, but rather to the quality and beauty of our relationship with the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit; your words speak to fellowship, in other words, and not to justification. Moreover, sanctification, while yet unfinished, is also as definite as the one offering of Christ Jesus, and this because in him we have been perfected (and I read this as much more than a legal imputation or declaration; i.e., even though there is an already-but-not-yet at play here, it is nonetheless an ontological fact: in Christ we have been perfected). And because we are in Christ -- and this is the exciting part: -- our sanctification is as if it were perfected; said another way, its end is as definite and absolute as it would be if it were finished even as we speak. And so, the passive voice of the participial phrase "those who are being sanctified" is therefore crucial in our understanding of this: we participate or fellowship in our sanctification, but we do not produce it; we are being sanctified by a sovereign act of God. He is the active agent; hence its outcome is certain. Paul says it like this: "For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began [this] good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phi 1.6). We will be sanctified, and this is for sure, because it is God who sanctifies us.   Now, does that produce hope and assurance, or what?   Bill   * In Greek grammar, "aspect" indicates what type of action a verb describes. A verb which occurs in the "perfect aspect" indicates an action that was brought to its full completion but has effects carrying on into the present (See Mounce, 119-120). If I need to explain further I will (not that you will need it, but maybe others will).   ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Legalism Judy The reason why I asked the question; the reason why you can't come up with any scripture in answer to my specific question;  the reason why I can't come up with any is this:   God's love and God's grace do not empower, per se  -----------  the Spirit is the power of God's presense.  I think you have even said much the same in the past.     The point is this:   God's love sets the stage for all that happens;  In "grace" are his blessings.  This word, "grace" is used some 125 times in N.T.  writings,  only fours of those times in two passages (Lk 2:40 and John 1:14-17) where the references applying to the person of Christ.   All other occasions are recorded in  post-cross scripture.  As relates to this discussion,  the most important aspect of grace is it's provision for our salvation and it's contrast to "law."   Romans 2,3 and 4  spell out the contrast between law (any law as illustrated by The Law Mosaical )  and faith.   In Romans 6:14,  Paul presents this very contrast in terms of "law"  (any law along the order of The Law)  and grace:   " ......you are not under law; you are under grace."   I would like to say, "short and simple" but "simple" is not the word.  I would offer the word "profound," but such would be too predictable.   Perhaps the best responce is silence  --   awe.     "The Law" (any law as illustrated by "The Law")  presented definitions for right and wrong and in that providing, became a burden to all who were under it (Acts 15:10,11) for a number of reasons. In Jere 31:31-34, a comprehensive prophecy of the New Covenant,  we have a contrast of the Law with the Relationship.   Since The Law is from God Himself, it would have to be the best offering of Law possible.   But God sees the need to change the administration of his will from Law to Relationship  (He had this in His mind from the foundations of the world)   How do we know this to be true  --  from law to relationship?   Two things   -----  maybe three.    In the text  (Jere. 31:31-34),  Jeremiah describes an "inwardness" that is unmistakenly different from that of Law   .............    so different, in fact,  that he means to say "not similar, of a different type."    It is the Hebrew writer ( Heb 8:8ff)  who tells us that "fault" was found in the Law.   If we forget that this Law was from the very mind of God,  and as such, it was the best offering that any Law could be, we will fail to appreciate the fact that any "second law" will have to be completely different, out of necessity.      The New Covenant is not a law........but an inwardness that provides knowledge of the Great God Almighty.   As such, it must be a relationship,  for only in a relationship will we have knowledge of Him....................the law is no longer a national circumstance but a personal one, an individual one.  So profound is this relating that it presents those who are under this covenant with personal knowledge of God:  "they shall not teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them..........       In Hebrews 10, 16ff, there is a presumption by Divine revelation  --   that sin is only forgiven in the offering of sacrifice.  We do not catch the importance of this fact.   ONLY IN THE OFFERING OF A SACRIFICE IS THERE TO BE FORGIVENESS.   That is why sacrifice has been with us from the beginning, post-garden.    When Jeremiah predicts that "....I will remember their sins no more,"  he was, in fact, speaking of the sacrifice that was offered once and for all time:   "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"  (10:14).   Confession does not secure forgiveness.  Prayer does not.   Repentance does not   ---------------   these are presented to us in scripture as subsitutes for sacrifical offering.   "Now where there is forgiveness  of these things  (full and completed0, there is no longer any offering for us"  (10:18).     Christ's sacrifice has on-going or continuing results  (the forgiveness of sins),  but in Hebrews, it is not because it is a "living sacrifice," but because it is a sacrifice of the Divine  --  God looking to Himself and knowing that this is the highest order, if you will, of sacrifice.  As such, it is the final sacrifice  ....  having been offered "once and for all time."   All sin has been forgiven for those who are sanctified by God Himself.   And sanctification occurs, not in obeying the law, be it new or otherwise, but in identifying with the Light.   God is light   --    and those who walk in The Light will have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us from our sins  (I Jo 1:7).  JD In a message dated 4/4/2005 7:39:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:40:22 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 4/4/2005 1:52:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What exactly would go to your question JD?  I asked for scripture that tells me that God's love and God's grace empower me to accomplish fully a separation from sin and sinning in my life.   If that is what you meant to say, I would like to see some scripture that specifically teaches that.   JD first you have to want to separate yourself from sin rather than make excuses and rationalize how to be saved and keep it.  "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3)  The scriptures you gave spoke of commandment keeping and my love for God expressed in commandment keeping   --   none said anything about God's love or His grace being the empowering agent in my complete separation from sin and sinning.  Didn't Jesus say that when we love Him and keep His Commandments that both Father and Son come to abide with us?  How much more power do you need?  Of course if you don't love Him and break the Royal Law you make yourself a covenant breaker who wears the curse rather than the blessings. First you delete 10 or so words from my statement and now you add 20 words or more to another.  No wonder you have problems "understanding me."     You don't make it easy JD   I write very precise.   When you embellish or delete, you have changed my meaning  --  Like the "Christ event"  folk do with God's Word? (embellish/delete that is)   probably true for  anyone.   Just read my question.....but I have gien you an explanation above.   I did read your question JD and I have given you enough scripture to show what God expects before we will see victory over sin in our lives. So where did I miss it?  Also how exactly does the clear Word of Truth transform into a "proof text?"    There is a larger context for all of your scriptures   -   again, probably a truism   -   anyway, all of those   scriptures seem to be used by you in the sense of "law'   -   What "larger context"JD? God's moral law has not gone anyplace in fact it will be your Judge in the last day (John 12:48)  John writes that he is not giving a new commandment but one that has been there from the beginning.  Why do you want to put some context into the clear Word of Truth?   "if you love me you will keep my commandments, my law"  when, in fact, the keeping of the commandments is a personal issue, not a corporate one, and how I express my obedience to "Love God" and "love your neighbor as yourself" is not open to public approval  ..   when, in fact, we are not under law (Rom 2, 3).     Romans 2:3 is about judging ppl JD because this breaks the Royal Law.  Actually loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves is a "corporate issue" because there will be no life and no peace in a Church full of ppl who are basically living a lie and serving the devil. "He that says I know Him and keeps not his commandments is a liar but whoso keeps His Word, in Him verily is the love of God perfected" (1 John 2:4,5)   The love of God being perfected in a pure heart is the goal of the instruction. The is when "perfect love drives out fear" and we walk in power over all the power of the enemy.