Re: [TruthTalk] Loving and Merciful God of Justice

[Dave Hansen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/5/2005 10:38:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH:   My latest post is in GREEN........blue for JD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/5/2005 8:54:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH:  If you really don't want to continue, John...so be it.  But I would still like to know why you do not consider yourself a Protestant.  Which of the reasons mentioned in your definition......... a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth. ......do you not accept, which would disqualify you from being a Protestant?  I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that you........ 1) deny the authority of the Pope   I do not accept the authority of anyone other than the word in my life.   Impute - yes;  authority - no.   2)  belief in justification by faith alone  justification at the point of faith  -- not faith alone; DAVEH:   Hmmmmmmmmm.......I fail to understand the distinction.  Paul tells us that we are "justified" by faith apart from obedience to [moral and ceremonial] law.  That occurs because of the faith of Christ  -- God seeing that and accepting it as our righteousness.    This blessing occurs "in Christ" via the Incarnation which presented all of mankind reconciled to God.    James tells us that we are "justified by works and not by faith alone."    The legalist or "works salvationists" see this as a statement implying specific and prescribed works  --   hear, believe, confess, repent, be baptized.  The student of James, the letter, sees this as visiting the fatherless, the widows, honoring the poor   ------   that sort of thing  (in fact, James does not even allude to the traditional legalese of modern Christianity.)    Such works, James tells the student, is evidence of a personal faith.   One is "required"  (the faith of Christ counted as our righteousness)  and the other is an _expression_ of our justification and is viewed by James as an action that continues our justification. DAVEH:   OK John....I think I understand some of that.   The part of the original comment....... justification at the point of faith  -- not faith alone .........that gave me trouble was your usage of..... point of faith .........I did not quite understand how you used that phrase.  For all I knew, it was a phrase used by Protestants (or non LDS people, if you will) that meant something specific of which I did not understand. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.  DAVEH:  I've discussed this before with Glenn (one of the original moderators), and have concluded that I disagree with the way Protestants understand the nature of salvation.  But....that is definitely a tangent that will bore most TTers because of their assumption (as I see it) that it is a pat (without question) doctrine. and we are "in Christ"  and this "faith" is a connection between my faith and the faith of Jesus, Himself   -------------------------     biblically speaking  "faith unto faith."  3)  believe in a priesthood of all believers  I do not know what this means. DAVEH:  ???   Excepting my possible misstating it as a paraphrase.....you suggested it in your definition of Protestant.  So....why would you not know what it means, John?  Actaully, I gave you a dictionary definiton  -- not mine. DAVEH:   Hmmmmm.......was it a Protestant dictionary???      ;-)    Why would I be responsible for someone else's definition.  DAVEH:  Because you offered it as your own in rebuttal to mine, which I clearly labeled as my own simplistic definition.  At least you made no disclaimers otherwise, so there was no reason for me to assume you believed differently. Perhaps it has something to do with what I have already said.  4)   accept the Bible as the only source of revealed truth  Nope.  It is my primary source of "authority, but certainly not the only one.  We, I, receive "truth" from a number of sources.  DAVEH:   What other revealed sources do you use, John?  You capitalize or highlight "revealed."  Perhaps you use this term in a different way than I do. DAVEH:  Yeah John.......apparently I do.  To LDS folks, revealed is quite meaningful......as we believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.    9th AofF All (spiritual) "truth" comes from the Father of Lights.   He is the primary source.   He is the revealer.   Joseph saw the revealed truth regarding his life of separation from his family as a providential consideration.   Others experience a still small voice.   Paul experienced a subjective but unmistakeable conversation with God as revelatory;   Peter received revelation in dreams.   Others receive revealed truth from prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, apostles.   Where two or more are gathered together, the Revealer is present.   Spirit filling occurs or is to occur during those creative times we share with each other in song, hymns and spiritual songs  (Eph 5:19).   I recieved a word of knowledge, as I call it, from a retired pastor in the Mississippi meeting.  I was used to supply a bible to someone who had torn his book into a thousand pieces.   There was a gift of one of the TTer's that presented me with a whole world of revealed truth  --  writings of fellow saints through whom God has ministered his Word for years and years.  and a friend or four who sharing what God has given to them.  Shall I continue?   DAVEH:  Do you believe the Lord could reveal more of the gospel at the current time, and that that revelation could also be considered as Scripture?  Or...do you believe Scripture is closed? -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... 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