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Question???????? What of being spiritually 'alive'
and, regularly misapprehending the meaning of Scripture? Each of us believes
this to be the case with some on TT some of the time (or much of the time). Do
you agree and, what's the deal there?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 15, 2005 00:31
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth
Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpen
Why would we handicap ourselves deliberately in
understanding this text by not using all the same tools we use every day to
understand other spoken and written texts?
Because we are dealing with a Spiritual book, a Supernatural book authored
by the Holy Spirit, a book like no other. We can not approach it in the same
way we approach any other book. It is sealed to those that are spiritualy
dead. They can study & study but will never come to a spiritual
understanding of the text. Proof? see the vast majority of "Dead" theologians,
who know not Christ nor His power!
Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes, Kevin, I'm sure it is harder to understand
some things 2000 years later. And yes, those living in non-Western cultures
do have contextual obstacles too. Do you imagine they don't? I doubt
they are worse than ours, though; in some ways, their cultures are more
similar to that in which Jesus lived. Talk with some Bible translators, or
learn a second language. You would find out a lot about how integral
cultural and historical context are to understanding verbal
communication.
Being slow of thought (that's me, BTW!!),
or any number of other things may also pose natural obstacles when
reading or hearing anything. I am not saying that God can't overcome
these. Please listen to what I am saying; I'm simply saying, why would we
set aside the normal linguistic tools? Why would we handicap ourselves
deliberately in understanding this text by not using all the same tools we
use every day to understand other spoken and written texts? It's just that
we have to reach a little for the tools in this case.
And now I really am finished talking about
this, as I have said it three times and it is probably boring the heck out
of everybody on the list.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:49
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth
Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpen
So according to your theory a modern christian, being unfamiliar
to the context, culture & original languages can not
possibly understand as well as a first century christian who was immersed
in the language, culture, context. Worse yet what if one were unfortunate
enough to be born in a third world culture, or even worse, one that is
slow of thought?
I had a nieghbor who was the unfortunate victim of a car accident as
a child, who recieved a brain injury. She could not read, had some
problems even "seeing" orientation such as left & right, let alone
context! When she got saved, somehow she learned to read the KJV of all
versions. I'll bet with all her handicaps and lack of context, she
could not get it as well as you learned theolog's. It is just that you
wouldn't know it by meeting her, she was the sweetest christian
lady.
Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Certainly. We all fully agree with Kevin
and Judy here, that we STILL (emphasis mine, again; please see
original post below) need the Holy
Spirit to enlighten us and enable us to receive the truth of Scripture.
The point Kevin and Judy didn't seem to
notice at all was that we do have to actually read the text, and
"reading" the text without drawing on (historical, cultural) context
is qualitatively similar to "reading" it in an unknown
language. Making use of such context is something we do all the
time in order to understand verbal communication; it's part of the
communication. Only usually we're standing right in the context and
it's pouring into our ears and eyes daily. In the case of
Scripture, we have to do some work to get at the context.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005
10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re
[Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpen
I'm totally stunned but I fully agree
with Kevin here. The bible can only be read with the Spirit. My pastor
said the same thing when he wrote about Karl Barth and scripture.
I posted it here sometime ago.
All I can add is, come Holy Spirit and
illumine our conversations here.
Love,
Caroline
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005
3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re
[Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpen
Knowing the Language, the customs, the greek, the hebrew and
knowing the stories & words in the scriptures without having the
Holy Ghost is like having the table of Contents only, it is
seriously lacking. One needs the Enlightenment of God's spirit to
understand "spiritual" words
Jesus said "The words I speak unto you they are SPIRIT"
This is exactly why the learned have no understanding of the
spiritual content.
They are spiritually discerned, what can a dead man
understand?
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Maybe, then, Judy, we needn't even
bother to read the Bible in our own language. We could "read" it
in Inuktitut
and the Holy Spirit could just siphon
the content into our brains without ANY of the normal means
of linguistic processing.
Debbie, please tell me you are
being silly rather than serious here...
The point being (as laid
out in an earlier post) that making use
of context is something we all do every day in
understanding
anything we hear
or read. But in this case, we are so far away from the
context (Jesus' hearers weren't) that we have to make
a conscious effort to go after
it. Of course it will STILL be necessary for the Holy
Spirit to enlighten and enliven us, as it was
for Jesus' hearers back then; but why
would he expect us to deliberately short-circuit the normal
process of understanding
language? Debbie
He doesn't expect this from us
and this is why He has made His Word available to us in our
generation in the English language. However, an English speaking person can read an
English Bible and a Greek speaking person can read a Greek Bible
with both knowing all about Israel's history and local
customs and yet it will still be a closed book without the ministry of
the Holy Spirit which is not so with what we read
and what we hear every
day on TV and in the newspaper.
It's something to think
about...
Judyt
Do you use biblcial, historical and
cultural context to help understand the meaning of
words?
Or do you see that as a devise of the
uninspired? JD
I don't see Jesus leaving any
admonition about history, culture, and Word Studies in
order to understand the meaning
of His Word. He sent the Holy
Spirit to give us understanding. I don't know what
Kevin's response will be but I see
the above qualifiers as an excuse to make the Word of God say
what you want it to and conform it
to strange and different doctrines rather than receive
the "faith once delivered to the saints".
jt
In a message dated
4/14/2005 4:36:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Does the "context" of your
writings demand that we REDFINE your words also?
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