Am I to understand you to be saying that Paul believed and taught what we have come to define as 'classic dualism'?
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: April 28, 2005 06:26 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Torrance > Debbie wrote: > > ... it's transformed that our bodies will be, not > > "discarded". > > Good point, but doesn't transformation of this sort truly imply a discarding > of our bodies? The caterpillar that transforms into a butterfly might be > said to be discarding his previous body. Think about it. The previous body > was large with very different digestive system and diet requirements and > without the ability of flight. Paul wrote that flesh and blood cannot > inherit the kingdom of God and goes to great lengths to explain the great > difference between the earthly body and the spiritual body. > > Debbie wrote: > > Transformation, and not discard, is the whole > > point of salvation. > > Interesting perspective. Can you elaborate? I see a very different > viewpoint in Scripture. The body must die before it is transformed. That > is an important issue concerning our salvation (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:36 ff.). > > Debbie wrote: > > Don't forget, there was no body left > > behind by Jesus anywhere. > > True, just as a butterfly does not leave his old body behind. > > Debbie wrote: > > Interesting you should say this, David, because some of us > > (well, OK, I!) have written previously that we won't be > > through with sin until our salvation is complete, i.e., until > > the resurrection; we're part of a groaning creation. > > I agree with this perspective, which is why I constantly object to the label > of "sinless perfection." > > Debbie wrote: > > That's one reason I am rather incredulous about your > > 'not sinning'. > > But not sinning and not having to deal with sin are two different issues. A > major reason Jesus Christ came was to conquer sin for us. > > Debbie wrote: > > If sin resides in our bodies, then we will continue > > to struggle with it while we now live. How not? > > Yes, we do continue to struggle with sin every day. Jesus Christ did too. > He was fully human. However, struggling against sin does not mean > succumbing to it. Jesus Christ proved this by living in complete victory > over sin, and the power of his life may be received by us who believe in > him. > > Debbie wrote: > > To pretend we can escape our bodies > > now, is the gnosticism. > > Do you have a link for this idea? The term "gnosticism" is a very broad > term that includes a wide variety of beliefs. I don't remember reading of > any gnostics who claimed to have victory over sin in the way Izzy is talking > about, but I'm certainly no expert in this field. Most of them did > emphasize dualism to a great degree, so much so that some taught that one > could indulge the flesh and not be sinning because their spirit was not > sinning. They emphasized gaining knowledge through the spirit and escaping > the pitfalls of the material world, including the flesh, but the way they > did so is far different than anything Izzy wrote. Surely you must recognize > this. The belief in dualism does not make one a gnostic. Paul taught that > there was no good thing in the flesh and that we should mortify the deeds of > the body on a daily basis. He further taught that we should seek the things > of the spirit and that this is how we apprehend God and partake of life. > This is classic dualism, is it not? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
