[TruthTalk] Paradise and Salvation

[Dave Hansen]

DAVEH:  Thank you for the invitation to join this thread, Kevin.  I will change the subject line to more accurately reflect the discussion.     Several years ago, I posted an explanation to Izzy's question.  I believe she was even a TT member at the time, but don't remember for sure.  There are a number of new TTers since then, so I don't think those who've heard me explain this before will be unhappy that I do it again.  However, I will shorten it a bit.     First, contrary to Blaine's assertion, I do not believe paradise was necessarily mistranslated.  The root is taken from an old Persian word that infers a garden with a wall.  Interestingly, this somewhat parallels the Garden of Eden.  It was a heavenly type place, yet it was a restrictive place.  The wall represented a barrier to passage beyond.  This becomes very significant to those who die, as I will explain later.      As I see it, there seems to be a common misconception by most Christians about what constitutes paradise.   The perception is that those who go there are saved.  Does it say such in the Bible?  Is there any indication that the thief had received the HG (which DavidM defined as salvation)?     We know that Jesus did not go to heaven the day he died.  He was not resurrected, nor did he ascend to heaven until a couple days later.  So when he told the thief he would see him in paradise, we know it was not heaven to which he was referring.  When people die, their bodies and spirits separate.  The spirit goes to a place (I'll refer to it as a spirit world) where it awaits the resurrection and final judgment.  For those spirits who have not accepted the Lord, it has been referred to as a prison.  (1Pet 3:19)  Again, a prison is a place with a wall that prevents one from advancing, and those spirits who either did not know of Jesus or railed against him would have ended up there awaiting the resurrection and judgment.     For those who had been sympathetic to the gospel in mortality, the spirit world is a step forward (upward, if you will) in their eternal progression.  While they are still confronted by a restrictive wall, in a state of paradise they await the resurrection and judgment, which events will allow them to go beyond that barrier preventing them from entering heaven.     So....when Jesus told the thief he'd see him in paradise, it was that spirit world existence where they would both be later that day.  As I've mentioned before, I have defined salvation as two-fold....first, being resurrected.....and second, the ultimate salvation is being judged righteous and then entering heaven never to have to confront evil again.  Since neither the resurrection, nor the judgment had taken place, to me the thief had not yet achieved salvation merely because he was in paradise.  His salvation would ultimately have occurred once he received a glorified resurrected body and was judged worthy of entering heaven.     To specifically answer Izzy's question, one does not have to be baptized to enter the paradisaical state found in the spirit world.  However, IMHO baptism by water and the spirit is necessary for salvation (entry to heaven) and will be afforded vicariously to those who have not yet made that covenant.     How do you understand ultimate salvation, Kevin (and Izzy)?  Do you agree with DavidM on it?  Or do you have another view?     Note:  Scripture describes various elements of salvation.  Sometimes it is a matter of being saved from one's enemies (such as Moses fleeing with his people across the Red Sea) or from an ailment or handicap (like the blind man mentioned below), but the most significant form of salvation is when one is saved from one's own sins.  By the grace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus has provided a way for us to be made holy.  Unfortunately, that cleanliness can be affected by the evil which pervades this world.  That is why I believe the ultimate form of salvation comes at the time we are judged worthy and enter heaven, never to be subjected to or influenced by Satan again.     Kevin Deegan wrote: BTW, Blaine, maybe you covered this already, but how did the guy on the cross next to Jesus go to Paradise if he wasn't baptized? Izzy   Go ahead Dave OR Blaine can you answer Izzy? EXAMPLES of those that were saved independent of baptism   Luke 7:37-50 "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her SINS, which are many, are FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is FORGIVEN, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy SINS are FORGIVEN. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy FAITH hath SAVED thee; go in peace." Jesus plainly stated that the women was immediately forgiven and was now saved by faith. She knelt at the feet of Jesus, trusted Him, and went away a saved woman. She was saved without baptism.   Luke 18:35-43 healing/conversion of a blind man. VS 42 "And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."   The publican, Luke 18:13, 14 Standing there in the Temple, he prayed saying: "God be merciful to me a sinner," Jesus says "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified!"   The thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43 Was not baptised. One was saved that we might have hope One was LOST that we might not presume. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.