Re: [TruthTalk] baptism

[Dave Hansen]

Charles Perry Locke wrote: DAVEH:  Ohhhhhhhh....what an interesting response, Perry!  I must say that I do find it rather curious that you would rather take a more vigorous new tack against my beliefs rather than discuss issues of theology common to both of us.   It is not what we have in common that is the problem...it is what we do NOT have in common. DAVEH:  So you have no interest in discussing theology in an effort to see what we might believe in common?  Maybe we have two different perspectives about TT, Perry.  I view it as a place where people of divergent opinions can share ideas and quiz one another about their beliefs without feeling threatened or inviting a hard sell approach to change other people.  I'm beginning to think you are here to do battle, so to speak.  To you, TT merely is a place to convert people to your way of thinking.  Am I reading you wrong on this?  If not, then for what reason did you come to TT, Perry? May I ask what has prompted you to take on this agenda with added enthusiasm?  And, do you consider yourself to be anti-Mormon?   I guess if you want to cast my position in a politacally charged framework you might try to call me "anti-mormon", DAVEH:  ???  politacally charged framework???  What's that all about, Perry?  You seem to have only one agenda on TT, and it is not pro-Mormon.  Referring to you as an anti-Mormon would have no political or social consequences on TT.  I think the description fits you well, and see no reason why you should not be comfortable wearing it. but it is more general than just Mormonism.  I think of myself more as being "anti-satan", "anti-deception", "anti-cult", "anti-pagan". Mormonism just happens to be the deception to which I feel drawn to study and refute at this time. DAVEH:  Do you feel compelled to attack other religions as you do the LDS Church?  IOW....If there was a Catholic TTer, would you treat them the same way you treat Mormons? I assume by now you fully realize you will not be converting me to your form of beliefs.  And while you may have higher hopes for Blaine, I doubt you are going to bet the farm he will leave Mormonism either.   I cannot convert anyone... DAVEH:  Certainly not with your harsh approach.....   I can only tell what I know and believe. DAVEH:  That's where I see you might have a problem, Perry.  You seem more intent on attacking rather than sharing your beliefs. If you are to be converted it will come from far beyond anything I can do. DAVEH:  Perhaps it would be more accurate to have said it would be despite anything you've done.....     :-) Furthermore, you must know that no other TTers sympathize with me or my beliefs, so I can't imagine you are powering up your war against LDS theology for their benefit.   Dave, to be honest I am not even sure why I am doing what I am doing. I feel repulsed by the prooftexts and philosophys that mormons espouse, and particularly that you and Blaine speak on this forum, DAVEH:  Thank you for your honesty in saying this, Perry.   I am sorry my posts repulse you.  I'm sure you are not the first TTer who intensely dislikes my beliefs.  Is there a possibility the reason you are repulsed is an internal hang-up rather than with what I actually post?  As I pointed out regarding the ALL discussion, you and Kevin reacted quite negatively to my point, while apparently not being bothered at all by DavidM saying essentially the same thing.  Do you suppose your biases may be clouding your thinking?     Now....knowing how repulsed you are at the beliefs I espouse, would you advocate I not post my beliefs on TT?  In times past, some other TTers felt it was wrong for me to even be a member of TT.  Do you feel that way as well?  IF you feel it is OK for me to be a TTer, do you think it is OK to post my beliefs here as freely as you or any other TTers? and also feel driven to respond to them, to speak the truth about them as clearly as I am able. DAVEH:  Except you don't seem to want to have a meaningful discussion about the topics of the posts themselves, but rather prefer to go off on tangents and portray my beliefs in a most detrimental way rather than have an exchange of ideas about the specific thread.  Your approach seems more intent on smearing the LDS Church rather than having a thoughtful discussion with a Mormon who has contrasting beliefs. I pray about this, and just last night prayed that if God wants me to continue to approach mormism this way, that the compulsion continue, but if not to remove it. It was still present when I woke up this morning. DAVEH:   Did you awake having a knot in your stomach and feeling angry?  No offense Perry, but that's the way you come across many times. As you know....I am fascinated to know why /real Christians on TT/ like you believe as you do, and react to LDS theology as you do, which is why I am on TT in the first place.  You say you are on a quest....why?  I do hope you enlighten me as to why you are getting so emphatic now.....just what is motivating you, Perry???   I recoil at the presence of Satan DAVEH:  ???  Meaning me?     :-(     Do you feel I am bringing evil to TT?  If so, (other than Blaine) have you felt that way about other TTers as well? and cannot stand by and watch. My compulsion is to expose him.   I am not a theologian, so I do not fare well in discussions with those who consider themselves to be so, and who have the time and knowledge to develop lengthy arguments that go on and on to prove some minor point. While I have not joined in to too many lengthy theological discussions on TT, I have always felt compelled to respond to the mormon deceit that appears here from time to time. I feel my purpose has been to expose the lie, point out the prooftexts, distinguish words that mormons have redefined and that ,islead unsuspecting Christians into thinking that mormons are Christians, and perhaps most importantly, to point out to you and others that the jesus and god you worship cannot possibly be the Ones described in the Bible. Theie names are the same, but they refer to totally different beings.   Dave, do you find the way in which I was led to TT to be at all peculiar? I was on a flight from southern California to Kentucky to visit family in December, 2002. I happened to sit next to a wonderfully pleasant woman who told me that her brother ran a religion discussion group called "truth talk". From our discussion I knew she (and you) were LDS. When I reached my desitnation I did a search on truth talk, found the group,  and immediately joined. And you and I have been friends ever since. DAVEH:   Ohhhhhhhh........maybe you don't think of me as Satan after all.....       :-) Your own sister led me to the group, and you, but who led me to her? Coincidence? I don't think so. DAVEH:  Or, Perry....is it not possible the Lord may want you to know more about what I believe rather than for me to hear what you believe? And why do you think you have such a curiosity about what you like to call "protestantism"? I believe that is more than a coincidence, too. DAVEH:  Perhaps so.....From what I experience in TT, I certainly have much more appreciation for my LDS culture than I had before. Blaine is just here to blow his horn, but you, my friend, are a real seeker. DAVEH:  There are TTers who would strongly disagree with you on that, Perry.  Furthermore, I assume you have heard me say many times that I am not on TT to learn truth.   So why you would think that I am a real seeker baffles me.  I have an innate curiosity about a few things, one of them being why guys like you believe as you do.  I don't find wishy washy Christians nearly as interesting as those who boldly proclaim their Christianity, yet do and say things that seem oddly out of character from my LDS perspective. I commend you for taking that step. But you still have one more step to take. He is knocking at your door as we speak. If you open it he will enter. DAVEH:   I am amazed that you would think for a second that I would want to open a door from which emanates the vitriol I find in some of the comments posted on TT, Perry.  If you want to rail against my beliefs, that is your privilege Perry.  But don't expect such ranting to cause me to sympathize with beliefs that would foster such. Perry -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.