Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Mon, 09 May 2005 19:55:15 -0700

When dissident religious groups like the Quakers and the Baptists fled to America to escape persecution in Europe, they made sure the government would never be able to interfere with how they worship by separating church and state. Would you prefer that church and state are not separated? If church and state are not separated, what would be the official religion of America?
 
Love,
 
Caroline
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

And I bet Lance thought America was #1.  Izzy

 

Who killed more people in the 20th century than all other ages before?

ANSWER: GOVERNMENTS and the worse ones totally denied the existance of a creator (China & Russia)

http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm

http://www.jpfo.org/gatway.gif

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/POWER.ART.HTM  This is a report of the statistical results from a project on comparative genocide and mass-murder in this century. Most probably near 170,000,000 people have been murdered in cold-blood by governments, well over three-quarters by absolutist regimes. The most such killing was done by the Soviet Union (near 62,000,000 people), the communist government of China is second (near 35,000,000), followed by Nazi Germany (almost 21,000,000), and Nationalist China (some 10,000,000). Lesser megamurderers include WWII Japan, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, WWI Turkey, communist Vietnam, post-WWII Poland, Pakistan, and communist Yugoslavia. The most intense democide was carried out by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, where they killed over 30 percent of their subjects in less than four years. The best predictor of this killing is regime power. The more arbitrary power a regime has, the less democratic it is, the more likely it will kill its subjects or foreigners. The conclusion is that power kills, absolute power kills absolutely.

(Goverments kill more than wars)

 

DEATH BY GOVERNMENT By R.J. Rummel

Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.

II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS

8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse

IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS

15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia

Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Okay, so basically Geneva asked a  Christian, Calvin, to run their city along biblical lines. They asked him because he was the leading theologian and had written the Institutes while he was in his 20s.

 

Be that as it may, can you see that happening to one of our cities today? Geneva asked Calvin because they thought he had the solutions to their problem - law and order. They had confidence that he knew the right way. Of course, some people like Terry think Calvin is all wet. Christianity has changed a lot since then. Only Islamic countries believe the mosque and state are one. We believe church and state should be separate.

 

Love,

 

Caroline

----- Original Message -----

From: Kevin Deegan

Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 6:48 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

 

Do you know of a better equivalent?

Christian? Maybe you believe that fundamentalism is "THE FAITH" once delivered. You know that old time BOLD Apostolic faith passed down. 



Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Fundamentalism, as we know it, was a reaction to Liberalism in the 1900. Both terms sort of got birthed at the same time. Calvin was in a league of his own. The only 2005 equivalent to him that I can think of would be a fundamentalist. Do you know of a better equivalent?

 

Love,

 

Caroline

----- Original Message -----

From: Kevin Deegan

Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:16 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

 

Isn't it some kind of logiocal error to impose fundamentalism on Geneva, when Fundamentalism was birthed around 1900?

 

Where there Neo's at the time in Switzerland?

Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

But does anyone ever choose hell - eternal damnation and eternal conscious torture? Some people may feel that that's my destination (along with a lot of Evangelicals - Brian McLaren, Dallas Willard, N.T. Wright) but we all believe we're choosing to follow Christ. Do people make a choice and then, when the curtain pulls back...do they get exactly what they chose, better than what they thought they deserved or worse than what they imagined?

 

Calvin, along with Luther, shaped Western Protestant Christianity. At one time, the City of Geneva invited him to run their city. I can't imagine any American city inviting a fundamentalist Christian to write all their laws and administer their judicial system but that's what Geneva did. But you're right when you said "anyone who follows Calvin is deceived or an idiot or both". Some people who said milder things got burnt at the stake. Calvinism was synonymous with Christianity... It is only very recently that fundamentalist Christians started to question the theology.

 

Love,

 

Caroline 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

 

Caroline Wong wrote:

Okay, you got me there, Terry. That should be Romans 11:25-27. But here is the rest of the passage in KJV (verses 28 to 32)

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

 

Now, what you wrote is valid and solid thinking and a lot of people believe that. But a lot of people considered the rest of the passage and felt that Israel, as a chosen people, have no choice but be saved and this is God's sovereign choice. It is irresistible grace and unconditional election. (Part of Calvin's theology)

 

So on one hand: possible scenario that all Jews are born destined for hell from 33 AD until a day in the future when the full number of Gentiles come in and then Jesus is revealed to them as their Messiah. On another hand, possible scenario that they are saved no matter what because it pleases God to do so. If someone can answer "why would God set it up this way?" for either scenario, then a lot of answers to age old questions (from why the tree of knowledge in the garden to why do we suffer to why are some born handicapped or with cancer) fall into place. Many theologians have attempted to formulate a theodicy that matches what they believe about God and the bible. The entire branch is called theodicy and it's not a simple formulation.

 

Love,

 

Caroline

==================================================================
I am not a theologian and have no idea what theodicy might mean but there is a third scenario that makes more sense than either of the two above.  All Jews were never destined for Hell at any time.  Those who go there do it by choice, just as you and I would.  The same thing applies to those who are saved.  The old "Choose who you will serve" thing.  God is not willing that any be lost, but just as I would never have forced my wife to be my wife, Christ will not force any to be His bride.  Anyone who follows Calvin is deceived or an idiot or both.  In my opinion, during the tribulation, the vast majority of the Jews living during that time will be killed.  Those who are left will believe.  God always makes certain that a remnant remain.  No one will ever eradicate the Jews, but at the end, I believe they will come closer than they have for a long time.
Terry

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