Raymond,
I thought I would answer this post by giving you some background about what I believe mormonism to be. You would find all of this out eventually, but by stating it up front I can save us weeks, maybe even months or probing.
1. I believe the bible to the the Word of God, delivered once (for all) to the saints, containing all knowledge both necessary and sufficient to attain salvation, know God, know Christ, and discern his will for our lives.
2. While I believe that in His sovereignty God can deliver additional revelation, I believe that the mormon works are not revelation from God, but either the musings of a false prophet at the very least, but more likely the inspired messages of Satan.
3. I believe that Joseph Smith was influenced heavily by Satan, was a freemason, believed in magic talismans, was a liar, a deceiver, a cheat, a philanderer, a pedophile, and a false prophet.
4. I believe that the book of mormon is a fraud, having come from several possible sources...plaigerized works, satanic inspiration words, and plaigerized sections from the Holy Bible (KJV).
5. I believe that there is absolutely no genetic evidence that the peoples of the Americas (Indians) descended from hebrew peoples. Furthermore, there is genetic evidence that they did not. This totally destroys the entire mormon house of cards, exposing the system for the lie that it is.
6. I believe that the mormon church is a tool of satan to deceive people into following a false (little 'c') christ and a false (little 'g') god. I do not think the mormon people are evil. In fact, they exude, for the most part, the extreme opposite of evil. However, the nicest, warmest, fuzziest people in the world can still be deceived...Satan does not have to produce evil in people to win their souls...he only has to keep them from knowing the real Christ and God. In fact, I see the signature of Satan throughout the mormon religous system.
7. I refute mormonism on this forum, and attack satan at every turn, for two reasons. 1) It is my hope that I can provide the word, the idea, the thought, the fact that will allow you (mormons) to finally see the heretic mormon system for what it is, a clever tool of Satan, and allow you to get just enough of a glimpse to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you, and 2) I am here to expose the satanic and heretical nature of the mormon church to other members of TT. (I have a tertiary motive, and that is that by debating mormons on their religion, I cane fine tune my understanding of their system).
8. The words that mormons use to describe their beliefs, and the words that Chritians use to describe their beliefs, are often the same, but the meanings are different between the two. So, whenever I see a word being used by a mormon that means something different than the traditional Christian denotation, I point that out. This helps to prevent other TTrs from being deceived by the mormon word meanings.
9. While I try to be rational in all that I post, my cynicism often comes through in my posts. I am revulsed by satan and get extremely frustrated when I see the bible abused and misused, and Christ and God maligned by the false christ and false god of mormonism.
Well, that is about it. I did check out the references you gave, although I did not have time to read them all. I think that essays based on a heretical system perpetuate the lie, so automatically suspect mormon sources as biased, working to prove a point rather than to discover the truth about it.
Perry
From: Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism 4 dead? Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
Perry: Like baptism for the dead. man-to-god. Secret names, grips, tokens, and penalties. Dave, have you ever given any of the freemason, I mean mormon death signs? Dragging you thumb across your throat, chest, or abdomen, indicating what you agree will be done to you if you reveal what you learned inside the temple? Isn't this what keeps you from telling anything about it (I know the pat mormon line "it is not secret, it is sacred"). Actually it is occultic. Jesus NEVER threatened anyone with death if they told a secret, because there were none. Everything he did was out in the open. No secret handshakes, passwords, death signs, etc. It is all masonic ritualism embedded by JS, a 33rd degree mason, into the mormon temple ceremonies. He sure duped a lot of people. I know a few.
Raymond: Aren�t you bold to go treading into places you know little of. Well, I�m going to take you by the hand and we are going running. I hope that you can keep up.
Baptism for the Dead--
"So these also who had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and 'entered into the kingdom of God'. . . . This seal, then, was preached to them also, and they made use of it 'to enter into the kingdom of God.'"
"Why, Sir," said I, "did the 40 stones also come up with them from the deep, although they had received the seal already?"
"Because," said he, "these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, having fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to those who had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave to them the seal of the preaching. They went down therefore with them into the water and came up again, but the latter went down alive and came up alive, while the former, who had fallen asleep before, went down dead but came up alive. Through them, therefore, they were made alive, and received the knowledge of the name of the Son of God. . . . For they had fallen asleep in righteousness and in great purity, only they had not received this seal. You have then the explanation of these things also." http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BaptDead.shtml#hermas
Baptism for the dead, Secret names, grips--
Origen, a Christian scholar of the third century A.D., wrote of the mysteries the Christians kept hidden from the world (Contra Celsum 1.1, 3, 7). Clement of Alexandria also wrote of the mysteries found in Christianity (Stromata 5.10.63; Clementine Homilies, 19.20). The fourth-century writer Saint Basil also mentioned the mysterious rites practiced in Christianity (On the Spirit 27, 29). A number of other early Christian documents speak of secret teachings and practices. Such LDS temple rites as baptism for the dead, prayer circles, handclasps, and new names are frequently mentioned in early Christian pseudepigrapha. http://www.shields-research.org/Reviews/Luke_Wilson_Response_to_01.htm
Man-to-God--
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt 5:48) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Cor 3:18) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1Jn 3:2)
Secret names--
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone; and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. (Rev 2:17)
Death signs?--
Not literal. Symbolic of being cut off from the Church.
For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. (Lev 18:29)
Actually it is occultic--
Actually, I don�t think you know what occultic means.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (Acts 24:14)
Jesus NEVER threatened anyone with death if they told a secret, because there were none--
I would say �spiritual death.�
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead. (Matt 17:9) He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:13)
No secret handshakes, passwords, death signs, etc.--
No? What do you think the fish symbol was?
It is all masonic ritualism embedded by JS, a 33rd degree mason, into the mormon temple ceremonies. He sure duped a lot of people. I know a few.--
I don�t think you know much about masonry, nor do you know much about Joseph Smith. You know even less about the temple ceremony except for the rhetoric that you have learned to spout. You would do well to learn and follow the counsel of Gamaliel.
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. (Acts 5:38-39)
--Raymond
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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