Dave,
Lets imagine for a moment that 99% of the people in the world who call themselves Christians are in error. That still does not make mormonism right. I would rather be in error in 50% of my doctrine, than in 100% error as a mormon. The first step is to recognize and know the Jesus of the Bible, and the God of the Bible. When you start with the false mormon jesus and the false mormon god, you cannot possibly get to 50%. Not even to 1%. You start at 0%. You stay at 0%. We in the computer field have a saying for this principle: GIGO.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:27:44 -0700
*Do you agree with these ANTI Christian teachings (above & below) of your church?*
DAVEH: I have seen a lot of stuff in Christianity (and posted on TT) that would indicate that there is a lot of error and disagreement within the Christian world. Just look at the diversity of opinions amongst TTers, Kevin. I suspect there are a few TTers who see disagree with some of what you believe. And...I suspect you also disagree with a lot of what has been posted by other non-LDS TTers. Am I wrong on that?
Yeah, I do believe creeds such as the Trinity Doctrine are wrong.....as it obfuscates the nature of God. And, if all the professors of religion at the time of JS subscribed to errant creeds such as the T-Doctrine, then that would make them corrupted as well.
So Kevin....If the T-Doctrine is errantly misleading, how do you think that qualifies me as anti-Christian?
As for the problems mentioned about the Bible, IF there were no possibility of men adding to, or taking away from it....then there would have been no need for the Lord to warn against such. Furthermore, it is quite obvious that such has actually happened, if one compares the various translations, and looks at how and what the Bible refers to certain things. Furthermore, lacking a knowledge of specific details not found in the Bible, men have created doctrines based on their assumptions, rather than actually Biblical practice. So it does seem logical that their is a fair amount of gospel information not contained in the Bible. Does that make me anti-Christian for suggesting such?....not in my opinion. What it makes me is someone willing to view Christianity from a common sense standpoint rather than dogmatically adhering to an unfounded assumption that ALL God wants us to know is found in the Bible, as some TTers have proposed recently....to wit, you and Perry, if memory serves correctly.
Again Kevin, I must respectfully disagree with you....I do not consider my beliefs to be anti-Christian. As with others, I simply believe your view of Christianity is in error.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
From WIKIPEDIA: "critics or opponents they contend stand in overt opposition to their church's practices or teachings."
ANTI Christian is also - critics OR opponents of Christian practices & teachings
My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the *sects* was right.... I was answered that I must join none of them, for *they were all wrong*; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their *creeds were an abomination* in his sight; that those *professors were all corrupt*.... (/Pearl of Great Price/, 1981, Joseph Smith-History 1:18-19)
If that is NOT a ANTI Christian what is?
Not only are all the sects wrong but the individuals are ALL Corrupt!
CREED: *1.* A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith. *2.* A system of belief, principles, or opinions: /laws banning discrimination on the basis of race or creed; an architectural creed that demanded simple lines./
Do you agree with these ANTI Christian teachings (above & below) of your church?
(NOTE - DISCLAIMER these quotes are from LDS not NEO's on TT)
I [Joseph Smith] believe the *Bible* as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed *many errors*. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.327)
...It was not until February 16, 1832, however, after a conference in Amherst, Ohio, that Joseph said it was apparent to him, "from sundry revelations which had been received, "that "many *important points* touching the salvation of man had been *taken from the Bible*, or* lost* before it was compiled." (Preface to D & C 76.)
"The Lone and Dreary World" (A part of the L.D.S. Temple Ceremony representing the Telestial Kingdom, or the world we now live in. The wording may vary somewhat from one temple to another).
Lucifer: Oh, I see, you want religion. You want someone to preach to you. I'll have some preachers here presently.
Preacher: My! A fine congregation!
Lucifer: Oh, are you a preacher?
Preacher: Yes.
Lucifer: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?
Preacher: Why, certainly. A man cannot preach unless he has been trained for the ministry. Lucifer: Well, do you preach *orthodox religion*?
Preacher: Yes, that is what I preach.
Lucifer: Well, if you'll preach your orthodox religion to this people and convert them, I'll pay you well.
Preacher: I'll do my best. Good morning, sir.
"What! are *Christians ignorant*? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast". John Taylor (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, pag. 25).
"We talk about *Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense*....It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as *corrupt as hell*; and the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century". John Taylor, (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, pag. 167).
"The *Christian world*, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro withersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called *Christian world was groveling in darkness*". Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, pag. 73).
"The* Christian world*, so called, are *heathens* as to their knowledge of the salvation of God". Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, pag. 171).
"The titles *church of the devil* and great and abominable church are used to *identify all churches*...--which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation...There is no salvation outside this one true Church,..." "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 1-350"). Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137, 138, 670.
Who or what is God? Is he the incomprehensible, uncreated, immaterial nothingness described in the *creeds of Christendom*. A *three-in-one nothingness*, a spirit essence filling immensity, an incorporeal, uncreated being incapable of definition or mortal comprehension, an unknown God who does not appear to men? McConkie, Bruce. The Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Matthew - Revelation. Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft, 1976-1977 (3 Vols.) (Vol.2 p.113)
"...*orthodox Christian* views of God are Pagan rather than Christian." (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116)
The immateriality of God as asserted in these declarations of* sectarian faith* is entirely at variance with the scriptures, and absolutely contradicted by the revelations of God's person and attributes. We affirm that to deny the materiality of God's person is to deny God; for a thing without parts has no whole, and an immaterial body cannot exist. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints proclaims against the incomprehensible God, devoid of "body parts, or passions," as a thing impossible of existence, and asserts its belief in and allegiance to the true and living God of scripture and revelation. Talmage, James E. A Study of the Articles of Faith. Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 1977. (P.48)
*False creeds* teach that God is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space and is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. In a vain attempt to support this doctrine, formulated by councils in the early days of the great apostasy, it is common for apologists to point to the statement in the King James Bible which says "God is a Spirit" (John 4:22-24). The fact is that _*this passage is mistranslated*_; instead, the correct statement, quoted in context reads: "The hour cometh, and, now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him. For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth, (Inspired Version, John 4:25-26). McConkie, Bruce R. Mormon Doctrine. Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft, 1977. (P.318)
"...the *God whom the 'Christians' worship* is a being of their own creation..." (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses 23:243)
"*Christians* speak often of the _*blood of Christ and its cleansing power*_. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter *nonsense and so palpably false* that to *believe it is to lose one's salvation*". What the MORMONS think of CHRIST, L.D.S. pamphlet, pag.22.
*You can't have it both ways, which is it?*
** *_Mormonism is ANTI Christian to the core!_*
*/Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
DAVEH: Thanx for your reply, Perry. Apparently we have a difference of definitions. /Anti-Mormon/ is a term defined primarily by Mormons to describe people like you and Kevin, so I'm curious to know why you would want to change the definition to exclude yourself. A pretty good definition is detailed at.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mormon
.......By that definition, would you not be properly labeled as an anti-Mormon? If not, how do you define /anti-Mormon/, Perry?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
It would not, since I am not against mormons, per se. I am against mormoniISM. Not the poor deceived messengers of satan that promote it. Call me anti-statan, or more specifically, anti-mormonism. You can continue to call me anti-mormon if you want to disperse me :-), but that is not accurate.
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:04:42 -0700
DAVEH: Why would you consider me anti-Christian, Kevin? Have I been attacking Jesus?
Perry on the other hand has admitted to attacking Mormonism, so the anti-Mormon label would be appropriate, would it not?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
You are very perceptive, I am a very sensitive guy : ) I have no problems with labels a wear a few. I do have a problem when it is a manuever to discredit the messenger without dealing with the issues. By the way I believe most of the labels I have posted are of a theological bent (liberal) not such as emotional (ANGRY) or psychological (mental) So if Perry is ANTI Mormon then you qualify on the same grounds as ANTI Christian!
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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