[TruthTalk] Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

[Judy Taylor]

On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:49:53 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Thanks for your reply to this, Judy. I read through a few times and see considerable common ground. One place where I think we disagree is: I would say that without bodies, we wouldn't be the kind of creature we have to be to do the work given to us as image-bearers, and in that sense they are part of being created in his image--not in the sense that they are copies of God, because of course you are right, he is spirit. But they aren't just arbitrary or "extra". And that's why we will be physically resurrected, too.   This is one of the areas where I am always misunderstood.  I am not promoting some kind of gnostic weirdness or bodyless christianity; yes our bodies are part of our existence but they are not supposed to have the pre-eminence. Things became reversed when Adam fell. Actually we were created to be primarily spirit beings (in God's image) and when Jesus came He demonstrated how it should be for us, or how we should walk. After the fall mankind was still being spiritually led, but in deception and by the wrong spirit. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom.  We may have a body but it won't be this one.   I would probably also say that many of the things we are called to do are "unrealistic". I don't think you mean we should just give up on carrying out our job in the creation. By "creation", BTW, I don't just mean the natural environment (trees, water, air) but include all spheres of earthly activity. That is kind of a loose use, I guess! --but one that is common in some circles.   I am not understanding what you mean by "carrying out our job in the creation" - I do believe in taking care of our bodies and being good stewards in the earth. However, I believe the environmentalists carry things too far and that Peta ppl (their Headquarters is local) are much more of a nuisance than Street Preachers.   Jumping off from there to a more general question: sometimes I wonder how much we invest in a certain cherished vocabulary, and whether we partly deceive ourselves in so doing. I recently got an e-mail from a beloved old friend with whom I spent several years in a certain Christian community. He said, among other things:   "I found when I got here that certain ideas I had always assumed were quite clear in conversations at [XYZ] were greeted by polite bafflement here. It was good exercise to decide first of all if those pet ideas were worth reworking into normal English, and secondly, how one would do such reworking. And how much of the original idea would be left following such reworking. That was a bit of a shock and quite helpful."  Debbie   I'm not sure what you mean by "certain cherished vocabulary" Debbie - Are you referring to Biblicalese by chance?  If so, I don't see it in that way personally.  In fact I view much of Christendom as "religious Babel" and IMO it is paramount for young believers to spend time, a lot of time in God's Word until they know it for themselves and are able to discern between good and evil so that they know whether what they are hearing is the real thing or some kind of lie that is close.  When we moved to Suffolk we sat under a Pastor Nicholas who once said "I'm so glad to hear all those pages rustling out there when I give a verse - in some places the devil could be up here preaching and the people wouldn't know the difference"  How true - and sadly it is even more so now than it was back then.   judyt     From: Judy Taylor   On Sun, 8 May 2005 18:11:46 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Hi Judy,   I would like to seek out the common ground if there is any. Without having to say that the statements below say everything there is to be said on the subject, tell me if you can agree on any of them:   1. God created the universe. It is his, and he is present and active in it (although distinct from it and not limited or contained by it).   My belief is that God created the worlds by His Word; He spoke them into existence and they hold together today by the Word of His power.   2. God made people, bodies and all, in his image. Although sin has badly distorted our reflection of God, it has not been able to obliterate it.   I don't believe that the "image of God" is a body because to begin with God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and He is eternal. Our bodies are mortal and temporal. Made in His image is to be made in His nature and character which was lost when Adam fell.   We can have a relationship with God of a kind that no other creature can, and we were made for this relationship. It involves all our faculties, all our being. In Christ this relationship is not only restored but becomes more than Adam and Eve ever had.   Yes; animals are not "spiritual" they have bodies and souls. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and this is the purpose for the New Birth/New Creation.  God is not interested in relating to a bunch of rebels.   3. People were given stewardship of God's creation and were made in such a way as to carry it out. Sin interferes with this too, but in Christ we are restored to this function.   Adam was responsible for the garden to dress it and keep it and yes, in Christ we are in the process of restoration. However, IMO it is a bit unrealistic to expect to take over socially and legally with EPA standards etc. and restore the creation to it's former pristine condition when we are struggling with our own issues. We need to cooperate in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling and let God handle what He only is capable of doing..   4. The full story of salvation includes our resurrection and the renewal of creation. This means we will again have bodies of some kind.    Yes, the creation will be cleansed by fire, us included because the baptism of Jesus is actually a baptism by fire; those of us who make it and are left standing through the fires of judgment will receive a transformed body like the one Jesus has presently...   Feel free to add or qualify.   Debbie       ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 No problem Debbie, I'll wait to see how things look after a break when you are rested. Is Lance working you too hard? judyt   On Fri, 6 May 2005 19:48:52 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Hey, Judy,   I see, on rereading, that I allowed irritation and impatience to strongly influence the content of my two most recent posts to this thread. I've been pretty tired in the last few days, actually; not that that's an excuse, but I mention it as the reason why I will wait and rest a bit before making a better attempt at responding to your messages later this weekend. Truly sorry about that.   Debbie    ----- Original Message ----- From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Rikk Watts on Genesis 1   On Thu, 5 May 2005 23:14:06 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: But I remember, now, that you have a very different idea of the body, and it was talked about at some length on TT not long ago. (Remember the discussion about "gnosticism"?)    The above is not "my idea of the body" Debbie and my idea has nothing whatsoever to do with gnosticism. I don't remember gnosticism ever being discussed at length on TT; it was mentioned at times in passing by those who have no frame of reference for what I write so they use a "gnostic box" and it appears as though you are in this category also. My belief is that the human body is "fearfully and wonderfully made" - Nevertheless, 1 Corinthians 15:50 still stands. I didn't write scripture I just believe it as is. What are you going to do with this statement?   It is not your idea? I am guessing you mean that it is God's. Are all your ideas the same as God's? For your final question above, please see last couple of posts.   We understand Scripture differently on this question. Perhaps we could just disagree instead of doing it all over again. I don't feel compelled to try to convince you, and I think the effort would be ill spent in any case. Live in the light you have.   Thanks for your permission or suggestion Debbie   actually, it was a straightforward command :-) but go on...    - whatever. Of what have you been trying to convince me?   Nothing. Did I say I was? I thought I said the opposite!   We are obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum with your faith resting in the human understanding of speech forms    No; I use them carefully for talking and thinking, as they should be used, but my faith doesn't rest in them. My faith rests in God, as I presume yours does.   and mine in the insight given by the Holy Spirit   Oh, your faith rests in insight. OK.   who gives understanding and who leads us into all truth (in every language and in all generations).    Tell me, do you expect to learn anything (=gain a new understanding that you never had before) from (or by means of) anyone on TT? Ever? I am not being snotty, I am quite serious about that.   Time ill spent seems to go both ways as you consistently ignore what I write with regard to the subject line and inevitably turn the subject back to ME... Not much joy at all in that.   Not sure what you mean by "turning the subject back to you". Do you mean I keep returning the ball to your court, like people do when they discuss? Or do you mean you feel personally attacked? I don't mean to do that. I have been trying honestly to talk about what you have been talking about. The joy I invoked for you was supposed to come from "living in the light you have"; if I have been detracting in any way from your joy, please forgive me. The way for me to stop doing so is probably to be silent. Like Job, I put my hand over my mouth.      Debbie    jt   From: Judy Taylor   Debbie writes: 1. We are not saved to be something other than human. To be truly human does not mean to be sinful and broken.    What do you mean by "truly human" Debbie?  It's been my experience that ppl usually bring out "after all they are human" as an excuse for continuing in sin when they are threatened by someone they think may be setting the standard too high.   You can't be talking about the human body because we all know that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit God's Kingdom (1 Cor 15:50) So what are you saying here... What is your spin?   judyt