I don't let it worry me much.
Spring 1895 General Conference Wilford Woodruff Cease troubling yourselves
about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed himself and
when the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be ONE God or many Gods they will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. If we want to know anymore, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this. Humble yourselves before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a knowledge of the common things of the Kingdom of God. The Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. The Son of God is the same. He is the Savior of the world. He is our advocate with the Father. We have had letter after letter from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these things. Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday, today, and forever. That should be sufficient to know. (Millennial Star 57:355-356, April 7, 1895)
about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed himself and
when the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be ONE God or many Gods they will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. If we want to know anymore, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this. Humble yourselves before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a knowledge of the common things of the Kingdom of God. The Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. The Son of God is the same. He is the Savior of the world. He is our advocate with the Father. We have had letter after letter from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these things. Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday, today, and forever. That should be sufficient to know. (Millennial Star 57:355-356, April 7, 1895)
April of 1889, George Q. Cannon General Conference: There are TWO personages, the Father and the Son. God is the being who walked in the Garden of Eden, and who talked
with the prophets. This revelation came to us in certainty. (Millennial Star 51:278; April 7, 1889)
Brigham Young, in a sermon in the tabernacle in Salt Lake City on April 9, 1852, said: "When our Father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, and about whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." Of "His son, Jesus Christ," Brigham Young said: I tell you that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, just as I am the Father of my son."
Some have grumbled because I believe our God so near to us as Father Adam. (JD 5:331)
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me -- namely that Adam is our Father and God -- I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. (Deseret Weekly News 22:308-309, June 18, 1873)
Michael (Adam) was a resurrected being and he left Elohim and came to the earth with an immortal body, and continued so till he partook of earthly food and begat children who
were mortal (keep this to yourselves) and then they died. (Wilford Woodruff Journal, January 27, 1860)
October 15, 1870)
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Charles Perry Locke wrote:Dave,DAVEH: Perry....it doesn't matter what answer I give you....you won't find it reasonable. You've made it quite clear that even a truth spoken from the lips of a Mormon is to be abused.
I see a dilemma in your statement that Jesus was a god before he came to earth as a human, when compared to your own position (not a god) prior to coming to earth as a human. In my non-mormon mind that is contradictive. I am trying to understand how YOU resolve that conflict. I want to see if you have an answer I can find REASONABLE,
For what possible reason do you need to have an answer that seems reasonable, Perry. Look at it logically...You believe LDS theology is wrong. So why do you waste your time trying to understand it? Your previous attitude has been to attack anything emanating from Mormonism, even if it is true. So...I can explain my beliefs to you in detail, but your attitude towards them (and me) will remain the same, will it not? You cannot conceive that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is as we claim, the True Church....so why would you possibly want to know how I resolve conflicts of beliefs that you perceive to be false.
As I see it, there are two possible reasons for you to ask such a question knowing that you wouldn't agree with the answer. If you have a similar curiosity as I do to why people believe as they do, then you might want to know what is there about Mormonism that attracts people or why Mormons tend to be so committed to their peculiar beliefs. On the other hand, if you firmly believe Satan is at the heart of Mormonism, why would you even entertain such a curiosity. From your recent posts, I would dare say the latter is most likely, which leads to the second reason. You have in effect proclaimed Mormonism to be evil, and are on a crusade to denigrate it every time it is presented in a positive light.
So, why do you.....
want to see if you have an answer I can find REASONABLE
.......unless it is to find some some weakness in my beliefs, faith or psyche in which to attack....attack....attack, hoping I'll succumb to mocking, humiliation, peer pressure or whatever. If you don't like Mormonism, Perry....that is your problem. Just don't expect me to allow you to make it my problem.
Am I accurately portraying your position, Perry?
or if you will use of smoke, mirrors, and prooftexts to explain it away, or if you will sidestep the issue. These are the three types of responses I have seen you provide for various discussions and questions in the past.DAVEH: Believe what you want, Perry. I feel pretty comfortable in my understanding of what you perceive as a dilemma. I certainly don't have all the answers to each and every question you or Kevin might pose, but I don't let it worry me much. Perhaps what I lack in knowledge, I make up in faith. Furthermore, I feel so old and tired, I don't have much gumption to fight younger guys like you and Kevin. If you want to rule the sandbox...be my guest. I'll go find my own sandbox and take a nap. :-)
Obviously, you also see the dilemma and have no REASONABLE answer, so sidestepping must be the best tool in your mormon toolbox to deal with the issue. Whining about my motives is a red herring.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:59:35 -0700
DAVEH: I've got no problem answering somebody who really wants to know, Perry. I just question your motives. Why do you want to know? It seems obvious that you don't particularly care to know what I believe, since you think my beliefs are in error and have proclaimed your desire to prove it false. Like Kevin, you seem more intent on belittling my faith than in participating in a viable exchange. If I answer your below question, you will merely ask another, and perhaps another after that, in effect causing me to/ teach Mormonism/.....is that what you really want???
If you persist in insisting that I am deceptive about my reasons for joining TT, then I do find it strange that you would expect me to answer your questions using my LDS rooted beliefs.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,--
I notice that you often answer a question with another question. If you don't want to answer it, just say so.
It is a direct question with a yes or no answer. But, if you have no answer that is okay, just say so. Here is my planned responses should you choose to answer the question:
1) if you say "yes" then I will ask you why you did not retain any of your godly powers, as jesus did, when you cam to earth and why you have to work to become a god all over again.
2) if you say "no", then I will ask you why your brother jesus got to be a god before he became a man, but you didn't.
Again, if you do not want to answer, just say so. I am just trying to figure out the statement you made that jesus was a god before coming to earth, and whether you were or were not, and why that is.
Perry
DAVEH: Another leading question, Perry? Do you intend to criticize me again for answering your question???
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
If you believe jesus was a god before he became a man, as you stated, and you are his brother, then were you a god before you became a a man?
Perry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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